What's your thoughts on this Rolex Sea-Dweller, ref. 16600, calibre 3135 project?

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Jon said:

To be honest, as soon as you get the back off the case and have a good look it is pretty obvious if it is fake or not. I think wherever this myth that experts find it hard to tell if it is real or not is an old wives tale. Some fakes are pretty hard to tell without opening them.

Interesting but I think we have a problem here? We probably need to split hairs on a definition problem. For instance take a real Rolex movement put it in a real Rolex case but not the one it came in take a real dial real hands and make up a watch that is 100% real and what exactly is this?

If you send your Rolex in for servicing and anything's been changed at all from what it was when it left the factory Rolex will be unhappy and remove all offending components. This does become a problem of people changing things because they think it's their watch and they want to have a different dial Lord diamonds the bezel or whatever words Rolex sees all of this as evil and bad as far as a Intel Rolex only things the watch is legit if everything is exactly what it was when it left the factory and nothing's been changed including the stem everything asked me Rolex original or their very unhappy about its existence.

Then you think about a fake watch what is its real purpose? Well its real purpose is to make money for somebody and fool the customer. So all the watch has to do is look pleasant on the outside and inside can be anything. Typically nobody's going to see inside. So typically anything that's not legit counterfeit movement etc. why would someone spend so much time and effort making it look just like a real Rolex when there's no need to? Unless of course you have one or two movements to impress somebody with this is what's inside your watch but even that is problematic

Now we don't end up with I've interesting problem that troubles me where I work. The owner will offend a cage your watch by looking at it carefully with a microscope the timing machine etc. and he will point out all the things that he feels are not appropriate correct or whatever for your watch. But in my example above of mixing and matching legitimate Rolex parts he wouldn't necessarily be able to tell. The problem I have with this is it often times things like his claim to telling a counterfeit is look at the second hand the quality of the secondhand is not as nice as a legitimate one. But maybe somebody replaced a second hand on a real Rolex. Or the other day at work I don't know what it was in before but there was a really pretty movement transparent back and they decided it was fake because of? Now I didn't think it was fake I took one look was beautifully manufactured but they had a reason

What bothers me with counterfeit Rolex is or anything counterfeit watch related it is reminding me of a witchhunt. The early days of witch hunting how can we tell a which Manon which? That makes me wonder how many super fakes are really fake at all it's basically somebody deciding it's a fake based upon inappropriate assumptions. Like the secondhand is been changed or the watch was worked on the screws are perfect or other things.

Other minor problems with super fakes for instance I have a long story the not going to tell the short version is I found the website once where they claim to be counterfeiting Rolex watches. They even had a picture to prove their counterfeit watch the problem with pictures online how do we know it's really a counterfeit watch and not a real Rolex watch that you're telling us is counterfeit. Oh and they had testimonials from all kinds of people who bought their watches and were very happy with the service of course the problem with the watch is you don't know what's inside it unless you take the back off and just because somebody shows a picture online and says this is their super fake maybe it really isn't a super fake they be there just trying to say that.

4 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Anyway, isn't Rolex known to manufacture every single part of their watch, including producing the various alloys for them, in-house, at least since 2004?!

We end up with a interesting problem of manufacturing a watch. Does Rolex actually make every single part found in their watch? Then the year 2004's basically irrelevant. This is because initially Rolex buys stock in the company and they manufacture Rolex watches. I'm assuming over time Rolex will acquire more stock and only in 2004 do they get the whole company. But the company itself hasn't really changed other than the name on the front of the building.

The real question is did they really make every single component found in the Rolex watch from the beginning of time until end of the time? A lot of the components found in a watch would be extremely specialized did they make their own jewels or their own mainsprings for instance? But that is looking at the article they employ a heck of a lot of people now I would guess now that Rolex probably does make everything in-house. Especially when they have nifty CNC equipment like for making screws were he could make a huge batch of one type it instantly switch to another type where before he needed specialized machines for one machine for one screw now manufacturing all kinds of stuff in-house becomes very simple. But still is possible that in the early days they might have outsourced something may be perhaps. But conceivably we do have minor changes in thing is due to how things have been made over time which can lead to confusions over whether this is legit or not when it may be as a change of manufacturing methods

oh and regarding the screws found in your Rolex watch? In about mid-80s I went to a school reunion in Switzerland. One of things we could do was visit a factory and I picked Rolex because I wanted to see the mass production making of Rolex watches. Which is very disappointed I did not get the sea at all because didn't see them making Rolex watches in their Geneva headquarters even though the building is really fake?

So what did we get to see well after sales service because after all were watchmakers we should see that. Did learn something interesting about Rolex screws if your watch was sent to Rolex the screws that come back are not the ones that went there. As they are using powered screwdrivers they don't want to risk breaking heads off and they will replace the screws of every single watch. The other one of interest was suppose there's a scratch and you can see the brass? No problem they have a solution that basically electoral plates without electricity so the scratch goes away. The research Department was quite boring and didn't look like anyone was ever there. Then it was too long ago to remember all the details other than I was disappointed I want to see manufacturing.

 

32 minutes ago, SwissSeiko said:

You could tell it it is wrong, even if its right, and it would agree with you.

Yes the joys of artificial intelligence that is more like a trained monkey that's there to please you.

[VWatchie]

18 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Yes the joys of artificial intelligence that is more like a trained monkey that's there to please you.

AI can be tremendously useful depending on the application. However, AI doesn't seem to be very useful in the field of horology, which should be clear for anyone who has read this thread. AI will likely become more competent in the field of horology with time, but until then, I think we need to be very sceptical.

I read your post with great interest. For me, lots of new information and food for thought.

I'm actually considering buying a superclone of a Rolex with a movement that closely resembles the calibre 3135 as much as possible. My plan is to disassemble it and examine every single component in detail to get a clear sense of the differences compared to the genuine parts.

Finally, it’ll be time to bring out the hammer and/or the angle grinder and do what really ought to be done with every counterfeit. On that note, I believe Mark actually did just that in one of his videos... No, not a super clone, but here it is:

 

[RichardHarris123]

The problem with buying a super clone to experiment on is the cost several £1000 .

[tomh207]

3 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

The problem with buying a super clone to experiment on is the cost several £1000 .

And for that money I would much rather have a shiny new Longines or a Tudor 1926

 

Tom

[Kalanag]

3135 Clones are below 200 bucks. I payed €87,- for a good one from Ali to get practice for my genuine Oyster Perpetual. Servicing this clone, I could perfectly follow the Rolex documentation.

Edited yesterday at 05:36 AM by Kalanag

[tomh207]

@Kalanag indeed, but the superclone Rolex do rest Obote £2000 in price as a rule. I would still rather pay that for a watch from a reputable manufacturer with some history and heritage behind it. Besides don’t want my kids or grandkids to have legal problems when I’m gone trying to sell it.

 

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

My wife introduced me to a fake watch shop in Turkey, where she bought me one from.  The main sales room had good copies of most brands ranging from £100-£300. The guy showed me upstairs where he kept the really good ones, Pateks and such, he told me these priced at £1500-£2500. 

[Kalanag]

8 hours ago, tomh207 said:

@Kalanag indeed, but the superclone Rolex do rest Obote £2000 in price as a rule.

I don‘t think @VWatchie wants to buy a complete watch. The cloned 3135 movements are very affordable.

Edited 16 hours ago by Kalanag

[GuyMontag]

23 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I'm actually considering buying a superclone of a Rolex with a movement that closely resembles the calibre 3135 as much as possible. My plan is to disassemble it and examine every single component in detail to get a clear sense of the differences compared to the genuine parts.

Finally, it’ll be time to bring out the hammer and/or the angle grinder and do what really ought to be done with every counterfeit. On that note, I believe Mark actually did just that in one of his videos... No, not a super clone, but here it is:

 

Check out this thread:
https://forum.replica-watch.info/threads/comprehensive-guide-to-clone-movements-found-in-rolex-reps.10936248/

There used to be a thread on RWI showing macro photos comparing every 3135 part in a gen vs. VS and VR factory clones but it looks like it is no longer available. This thread has some good photos.

If you are going to buy a full watch and not just the movement on Ali, beware there are a lot of fake scam sites and it is easy to lose all of you money. Create an account first on RWI (they will go to bat for you if you have an issue with an order) and only order from one of the 'trusted' dealers listed on the forum. Only use the URL shown there as if you google the name of the dealer there are a lot of fake sites with an url off by a letter or number.

Edited 15 hours ago by GuyMontag

[tomh207]

33 minutes ago, GuyMontag said:

Check out this thread:
https://forum.replica-watch.info/threads/comprehensive-guide-to-clone-movements-found-in-rolex-reps.10936248/

There used to be a thread on RWI showing macro photos comparing every 3135 part in a gen vs. VS and VR factory clones but it looks like it is no longer available. This thread has some good photos.

If you are going to buy a full watch and not just the movement on Ali, beware there are a lot of fake scam sites and it is easy to lose all of you money. Create an account first on RWI (they will go to bat for you if you have an issue with an order) and only order from one of the 'trusted' dealers listed on the forum. Only use the URL shown there as if you google the name of the dealer there are a lot of fake sites with an url off by a letter or number.

Sorry, I may be an old, grumpy fuddy duddy, but I disagree totally with the concept that fakes are ok under any circumstances. I can understand someone wanting to get a counterfeit movement to practice on before tackling the real thing, however it is still supporting illegal activity which can be used to fund other even more lucrative for the perpetrators of the crime.

counterfeiting of any sort is illegal in all western societies as far as I can determine and is being cracked down on but still running rife. I don’t care what anyone says it is not a victimless crime.

Tom

[GuyMontag]

1 hour ago, tomh207 said:

Sorry, I may be an old, grumpy fuddy duddy, but I disagree totally with the concept that fakes are ok under any circumstances. I can understand someone wanting to get a counterfeit movement to practice on before tackling the real thing, however it is still supporting illegal activity which can be used to fund other even more lucrative for the perpetrators of the crime.

counterfeiting of any sort is illegal in all western societies as far as I can determine and is being cracked down on but still running rife. I don’t care what anyone says it is not a victimless crime.

Tom

No, I completely understand where you are coming form. I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers, if the post is against the terms of the board feel free to delete it.

[Mark]

35 minutes ago, GuyMontag said:

No, I completely understand where you are coming form. I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers, if the post is against the terms of the board feel free to delete it.

This forum is about watch repair. Opinions on the ethics of clones, replicas or fakes (three different concepts) are not to be enforced on this forum as this is a friendly forum, we can discuss it as long as the OP’s original topic is not being hampered  - in short, as long as we are chatting about watch repair then we are good.