Just a Heads Up Not to Jump To Conclusions

[Woolshire]

I had an Elgin 18s transitional watch on the bench. Simple COA. When I put it on the timegrapher, the machine couldn’t get a read on timing. Kept trying but would put two quick traces up and then start over.  It took me a bit but when thinking through it, I realized this watch is from 1871 and remembered not all watches were 18,000 bph. Researched and found this watch was “course train” at 16,200 bph. Had to manually set the timegrapher and the watch is running great. It is interesting that my timegrapher couldn’t tell it was 16,200 bph even though the watch is running with nice straight lines and beat error at 0.5.

[nickelsilver]

Some years back I vibrated a hairspring for an old cylinder watch. It was for another watchmaker, and they didn't want anything else, just the hairspring. I did it for 18.000bph, and of course, the watch was a slower beat. Should have counted the gear train!

[Woolshire]

A different one but fits under this title:

I bought a new (mostly plastic) pocket watch repair holder. When I put it and watch on the timegrapher, it showed quite a lot of noise. My first thought was something wrong with the watch (broken jewels, power train noise, etc.

Well, after 30 min of peeking at the movement, I thought of the new holder. Put the watch in my old metal standby and the noise was gone! I’m sure we all have items like these but the message, again, is don’t jump to conclusions.

[AndyGSi]

11 minutes ago, Woolshire said:

A different one but fits under this title:

I bought a new (mostly plastic) pocket watch repair holder. When I put it and watch on the timegrapher, it showed quite a lot of noise. My first thought was something wrong with the watch (broken jewels, power train noise, etc.

Well, after 30 min of peeking at the movement, I thought of the new holder. Put the watch in my old metal standby and the noise was gone! I’m sure we all have items like these but the message, again, is don’t jump to conclusions.

Why are you putting the watch in a holder on the timegrapher?

[Woolshire]

The watch movement is tested after service in a holder (at least that’s how I do it). Never had a problem with the metal holder. Actually, don’t have issues with a smaller plastic holder for wristwstches, either. Larger metal holder looks like this:

[AndyGSi]

3 minutes ago, Woolshire said:

The watch movement is tested after service in a holder (at least that’s how I do it). Never had a problem with the metal holder. Actually, don’t have issues with a smaller plastic holder for wristwstches, either. Larger metal holder looks like this:

You're supposed to put the movement directly onto the timegrapher.

[Woolshire]

My problem with that is the risk of damage to the seconds pinion from lying on the channel of the timegrapher floor (and spring inside the channel). I will always use a holder of some sort unless the watch is cased. I know you could elevate the movement in the spring holder but that makes me cringe. It’s probably a matter of whatever one has had success with

[AndyGSi]

2 minutes ago, Woolshire said:

My problem with that is the risk of damage to the seconds pinion from lying on the channel of the timegrapher floor (and spring inside the channel). I will always use a holder of some sort unless the watch is cased. I know you could elevate the movement in the spring holder but that makes me cringe. It’s probably a matter of whatever one has had success with

You do understand that a timegrapher works by picking up the sound with a microphone in the holder so what you're doing reduces it's ability to work correctly.

[Woolshire]

lol…yeah, I got that. The point is simply don’t jump to conclusions. I’ve used the metal holder well over a thousand times with zero issues. The new plastic holder muffles the sound enough to look like noise and that could send someone on a wild goose chase.

[tomh207]

1 hour ago, Woolshire said:

The watch movement is tested after service in a holder (at least that’s how I do it). Never had a problem with the metal holder. Actually, don’t have issues with a smaller plastic holder for wristwstches, either. Larger metal holder looks like this:

The other bit here is don’t jump to the conclusion that you are using a movement holder. You are not, you have shown here a movement held with a case vice.

 

Tom

[mbwatch]

I will typically use a case vise like this for 18 size pocket watches. They're about 2mm too large for a Bergeron 4040. But I would not expect the tg to fix a reading through one. The 18 size plates barely fit the microphone clamp alone.

[Woolshire]

14 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

The other bit here is don’t jump to the conclusion that you are using a movement holder. You are not, you have shown here a movement held with a case vice.

 

Tom

Fair enough but I find this works well for me when on larger pocket watches. I normally use a Bergeon 4040-P for wristwatches. I have some of the cylindrical Rolex holders I sometimes use. Those all work perfectly on the timegrapher.

8 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

I will typically use a case vise like this for 18 size pocket watches. They're about 2mm too large for a Bergeron 4040. But I would not expect the tg to fix a reading through one. The 18 size plates barely fit the microphone clamp alone.

Right, but the holder is much narrower on the sides than the large movement…another reason I like it.

[AndyGSi]

1 hour ago, Woolshire said:

lol…yeah, I got that. The point is simply don’t jump to conclusions. I’ve used the metal holder well over a thousand times with zero issues. The new plastic holder muffles the sound enough to look like noise and that could send someone on a wild goose chase.

That's because it's plastic.

Have you tried putting a plastic bag over your head and see how much it reduces your hearing.

[Neverenoughwatches]

15 hours ago, Woolshire said:

lol…yeah, I got that. The point is simply don’t jump to conclusions. I’ve used the metal holder well over a thousand times with zero issues. The new plastic holder muffles the sound enough to look like noise and that could send someone on a wild goose chase.

..more assumptions...this is where a movement should be placed for best results. Preferably with the crown or balance nearest the mic if its safe to do that and doesn't press on any important bits.

[Woolshire]

16 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

..more assumptions...this is where a movement should be placed for best results. Preferably with the crown or balance nearest the mic if its safe to do that and doesn't press on any important bits.

Thanks! I do still like the metal holder  because it is so stable and works great. I wish that tiny ledge on the tg holder was a little higher. And, 18 size pocket watches stretch that poor spring to no end

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, Woolshire said:

Thanks! I do still like the metal holder  because it is so stable and works great. I wish that tiny ledge on the tg holder was a little higher. And, 18 size pocket watches stretch that poor spring to no end

Take some off the top,  and stretch the spring out a little or change it for a weaker one until you are happy with the tension. 

[JohnR725]

On 1/30/2025 at 6:12 AM, Woolshire said:

It is interesting that my timegrapher couldn’t tell it was 16,200 bph

that is because it's doing exactly what it's designed to do. If you read the user guide of a timing machine and that would include a witschi they typically default for automatic mode to a limited quantity of ranges. For instance this comes from the Chinese 1000 manual. You will note it does bring up a minor problem with the Chinese machines of typically the machine will try really hard and it might make a guess which of course will be wrong. Witschi typically will not time it will give you an error and then you could switch to frequency mode word actually tell you the beats per hour. Then once you grasp that you have a non-standard watch you go in and manually set it the same as you can with the Chinese machine.

 

On 2/15/2025 at 6:34 AM, Woolshire said:

I thought of the new holder.

the timing machine sensor needs to pick up the vibration of the watch. Anything that interferes with that will give you possibly confusing results. This also includes some watch cases do not properly transmit the signal through. So in general it is best if you can hold the watch in the holder as that's what it was designed for.

 

9 hours ago, Woolshire said:

because it is so stable and works great. I wish that tiny ledge on the tg holder was a little higher. And, 18 size pocket watches stretch that poor spring to no end

one of the problems the Chinese have when cloning items is failure to grasp exactly what they're trying to achieve. So for instance on the left-hand side is a witschi microphone and on the right-hand side is the Chinese. They look very similar but the witschi has a much more defined edge for holding the watch movement.

then there is some other interesting problems like what's the largest size watch you can hold. The witschi microphone in the example below is holding a 36 size Hamilton deck watch just fine. Then on the right-hand side Chinese microphone holding a 16 size pocket watch in its case. Other minor little issues like the witschi has a constant force holding so whether you barely open under all the way to end the amount of force is not the same as the Chinese which is just a simple spring. On the other hand the witschi microphone is to be purchased separately like the last time I looked the microphone alone is about $1000.

Oh and because I was curious I grabbed in 18 size plate and yes the Chinese microphone will hold it. Although I was very cautious because yes the spring is practically at the end of its stretching but still I was able to put it in and it was holding.

then here's an example of what the watch should look like in the holder. True that's not an 18 size pocket watch that's a 10 size Elgin watch but still the concept that is the way it should look. Is the way the microphone was designed for best pickup results.