D. I. Y. Watch Timing Machine.

[tourbillon]

3 hours ago, rodabod said:

Probably just a slight poise issue, but that timekeeping is pretty good. The dial up / dial down positions show consistent rate which is why I suggested it may be the balance poise by the way. 

."poise issue" "balance poise"? Could you elaborate, please? (I am quite new at this, so to speak)

[tourbillon]

So, should I accept this sample? I have until friday to decide, I guess. It looks great and was an amazing deal (Chinese New Year Special)  (yes, I realize I sound like Trump:))
The lines are a bit "off" here and there, but is that "normal" for a 2D tourbillon, or only for inexpensive tourbillons?

Again, I have yet to see any print from any  €90,000 tourbillon. Please, if anyone has one..?

[rodabod]

4 hours ago, tourbillon said:

."poise issue" "balance poise"? Could you elaborate, please? (I am quite new at this, so to speak)

Hi, yes, balance poise. Poise affects the vertical rates because as the watch (or in your case, also the balance) rotates, the heavier and lighter areas of the balance wheel are affected by gravity which changes the rate of the balance slightly depending on position. 

It looks like it will keep good time, so I would keep it. Your easiest way to time it is just to wear it for one day and adjust for the offset in seconds. 

[rodabod]

If you want to confirm it really is balance poise, then measure again at a low amplitude, say between 140 and 200 degrees; the variations in rate as the tourbillon rotates should be greater. 

[matabog]

I consider the performance to be a good one: -1/+10 s/d is not bad. Beat error lower then 0.5ms, around 280deg amplitude.

It is not bad for a chinese movement. Could you post a picture with it?

[svorkoetter]

7 hours ago, tourbillon said:

So, should I accept this sample?...
The lines are a bit "off" here and there, but is that "normal" for a 2D tourbillon, or only for inexpensive tourbillons?

Again, I have yet to see any print from any  €90,000 tourbillon. Please, if anyone has one..?

I would keep it. I don't know if it's normal, but I would consider it acceptable, and I also would expect to see this sort of periodic variation in a tourbillon. Even if the poise of the balance were perfect, is the toubillon cage (and its contents) as a whole balanced? If not, then I'd expect the rate to speed up and slow down as the cage rotates, since first more and then less effort is needed to rotate it.

As per your second question, if you had paid 90,000 for a tourbillon, would you want to know that there was something wrong with it? :-)

And please do post a picture!

[tourbillon]

5 hours ago, rodabod said:

If you want to confirm it really is balance poise, then measure again at a low amplitude, say between 140 and 200 degrees; the variations in rate as the tourbillon rotates should be greater. 

.."measure at low amplitude"? mening I let it "unwind" and test it when the spring gives less force to the movement?..like let it sit for 15-20 hours and not wind it before I run the timegrapher test again?

Edited March 9, 2017 by tourbillon
clarification

[jguitron]

.."measure at low amplitude"? mening I let it "unwind" and test it when the spring gives less force to the movement?..like let it sit for 15-20 hours and not wind it before I run the timegrapher test again?

Sounds interesting.

Yes, once fully unwound (you could hold click from locking the barrel and let it unwind completely) you have to start winding as in one or even half a turn and the balance will start oscilllating. Once it's roughly 180o put it on the timer...


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[tourbillon]

Thanks for all your helpful feedback, rodabog, matabog and svorkoetter!

I think I will keep it, then.

I would be happy to post a photo of the watch, but I am not sure the rules of this site allows me to do just that, though, because the watch kind of bears an unintentional? resemblance to a famous brand/model automatic flying carousel tourbillon that costs around €90,000, so to speak.

It has a 42 mm SS body with brushed sides, 13mm thick, a dark gray grained dial w roman numerals printed in white, silver hands, a has railroad chapter ring surrounding the tourbillon window. I Think there is a Shanghai/Seagull SF8 showing up there.

It has Sapphire glass both on the front and on the back. The backside of the movement is quite nicely machined SS and the weight that powers the auto drive mechanism has some nice gold design clues.

The watch band is made from glossy, black alligator skin with a designed deployment buckle.

I will try to find a dark grey nubuck alligator band instead, the glossy black finish is a bit over-the-top, if I can find one that matches the price of the watch.

[matabog]

Dude, post a photo already!

and the price, and where you bought it from...

Edited March 9, 2017 by matabog

[highquality]

hey gus,

pretty awesome stuff you guys are discussing here!

I am currently trying to plan/estimate what I need to get in order to make everything work.

We have a watch microphone with a 5 pin din, which we still use with our timegrapher.

I was thinking to either buy a phono preamp (dont know if this would work) or build the preamp from the WOS site with the updated spec posted here.

My questions now, did anybody have the chance to try out a standard preamp vs the diy version?

And also if a standard watch microphone + preamp is enough to get the best possible results?

Or if a piezo is getting better results?

thanks in advance!

 

 

[svorkoetter]

1 minute ago, highquality said:

21 minutes ago, matabog said:

Dude, post a photo already!

and the price, and where you bought it from...

Indeed, unless the watch actually shows the brand name that it is a copy of (in which case it is a replica and should not be shown).

[svorkoetter]

3 minutes ago, highquality said:

We have a watch microphone with a 5 pin din, which we still use with our timegrapher.

I was thinking to either buy a phono preamp (dont know if this would work) or build the preamp from the WOS site with the updated spec posted here.

Or if a piezo is getting better results?

A watch microphone is bound to give better results than the piezo setup. I designed the piezo setup as something that would work reasonably well, and was easy for almost anyone to build.

However, a standard phono preamp is unlikely to work well. A phono preamp amplifies low frequencies much more than high frequencies (because low frequencies are attenuated when cutting a record, otherwise the needle would bounce out of the groove). That's exactly the opposite of what you want.

Also, without knowing the output levels of your watch microphone, it's hard to know how much amplification is needed. I suspect that the microphone already has its own amplification built-in, and simply needs power on two of the five pins of the DIN plug (no idea which two).

[jguitron]

hey gus,
pretty awesome stuff you guys are discussing here!
I am currently trying to plan/estimate what I need to get in order to make everything work.
We have a watch microphone with a 5 pin din, which we still use with our timegrapher.
I was thinking to either buy a phono preamp (dont know if this would work) or build the preamp from the WOS site with the updated spec posted here.
My questions now, did anybody have the chance to try out a standard preamp vs the diy version?
And also if a standard watch microphone + preamp is enough to get the best possible results?
Or if a piezo is getting better results?
thanks in advance!
 
 

I've been using this one with very good results. Have room to go up in amplification in even the most quiet of the watches...





My Achilles heel is my mic. I've shaven the rubber off and it's better but still I know there must be something better out there.





I also have a 5pin Witschi and got adapters to plug it up to the amp but the signal it's giving is mostly noise. Nothing I can amplify and clean with the peace equalizer. I haven't had a chance to fool with it yet but I'm interested in following what you get.

Cheers!



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[highquality]

Well, if those weren't rapid responses! Thank you!

I just talked to the manufacturer and he said, like you suspected, that the mic should have a built-in amp.

And after checking the connection again I noticed it's not a 5 din but a 6 din (an old timomat 2000).

So I'll try to find an adapter for that and post the results.

For those of you already running some kind of software timegrapher, what has your experience been compared to a dedicated timegrapher like witschi or greiner? Especially the difference/tolerance, I also read the timegrapher software thread and only a few posted numbers for comparison.

 

 

[svorkoetter]

3 minutes ago, highquality said:

For those of you already running some kind of software timegrapher, what has your experience been compared to a dedicated timegrapher like witschi or greiner? Especially the difference/tolerance, I also read the timegrapher software thread and only a few posted numbers.

Keep in mind that any modern timegrapher (i.e. one with a display instead of paper tape) is a software timergrapher. It's just one that you can't run any other software on.

The big difference, if there is one, would be in the stability of the reference clock. In a dedicated timegrapher, this is probably a very stable, possibly temperature-compensated, oscillator. In a PC-based timegrapher, it's the quartz crystal on your sound card, which may or may not be as stable as that of a dedicated timegrapher. (It definitely won't be as accurate, hence the ability in Watch-O-Scope to compensate by up to +/-100s/d).

[tourbillon]

7 hours ago, svorkoetter said:

 If not, then I'd expect the rate to speed up and slow down as the cage rotates, since first more and then less effort is needed to rotate it.

Great analysis, now I understand why the beat error increases during phases of the of the graph in the CR and CL positions.

[guidovelasquez]

Hace 3 horas, de alta calidad, dijo:

Bueno, si no hay ERAN Los Que Respuestas Rápidas! ¡Gracias!

Acabo de Hablar Con El Fabricante y DIJO Que, al Igual Que Usted sospechaba, Que El Micrófono Dębe Tener un amplificador Incorporado.

Y despues de comprobar v La Conexión de nuevo me di Cuenta de Que No Es fragor de las Naciones Unidas 5, 6 din Pero la ONU (ONU Viejo timomat 2000).

ASI Que Voy A ENCONTRAR Tratar de las Naciones Unidas Adaptador párr Eso y los Resultados de Publicar.

Para Los Que Ya Se ESTA Ejecutando ALGÚN tipo de timegrapher de software, Lo Que Ha Sido su Experiencia en comparacion ONU de la estafa timegrapher Dedicado Como Witschi o Greiner? Especialmente La Diferencia / tolerancia, también he leido el hilo de software timegrapher y Solo UNOS Pocos Números indicados para la comparacion.

 

 

Hello everyone. Here is a link that can work. I have a professional timing machine microphone. Brand Elma mini Test. The microphone has no preamplifier. Only one filter. Here I leave what has surprisingly helped me to have a good signal of any microphone. Whether this is a professional or a simple electric piezo. This gives a great signal that the Watch-O-Scope can handle very well.

http://reparacionderelojes.weebly.com/watch-o-scope-mic.html

Edited March 9, 2017 by guidovelasquez

[matabog]

Guido! English please :))))

HQ!  photos?

[guidovelasquez]

I am sorry. I use google translator. But the part that interests is in English.

[matabog]

No problem! I just thought it was funny :))

[jguitron]

I am sorry. I use google translator. But the part that interests is in English.

But the link?


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[tourbillon]

6 hours ago, jguitron said:

 (you could hold click from locking the barrel and let it unwind completely)

 

 

 

Please explain, not sure I understand. Can this be done on any watch?

(Right now the amplitude is 276, 12 hours after I wound it last)

[guidovelasquez]

This is my microphone.

This is my Preamp

And this is the result.

[tourbillon]

10 hours ago, svorkoetter said:

I would keep it. I don't know if it's normal, but I would consider it acceptable, and I also would expect to see this sort of periodic variation in a tourbillon. Even if the poise of the balance were perfect, is the toubillon cage (and its contents) as a whole balanced? If not, then I'd expect the rate to speed up and slow down as the cage rotates, since first more and then less effort is needed to rotate it

I see. Are the these graphs any indication of the general quality of the movement, do you think?

I can listen to the movement through my headphones (I can even hear myself breathing, so the piezo mic is a much better mic than many people may think) and the sound of the beat is very regular and has a pleasant ring/singing sound to it, but when I rotate the watch in my holder I can hear sort of a rattle (which could be caused by the inertia when the tourbillon is forced on the axis jewels? ) A fraction of a second later the rattle stops and the singing sound starts again, as soon as the watch rests in the next position.

I wonder for how long a time a tourbillon will last as compared to a conventional watch? The bearings carrying the Tourbillon must be subjected to relatively high forces.