Rolex cal. 3135 issues

[Knebo]

Ok, I'm glad. It then looks like you are in a good place with the client/friend.

19 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I am one hundred per cent transparent

That's the key. And also my approach with friends/clients.

 

21 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

just very keen to start using her newly purchased beautiful Rolex as soon as possible. I can certainly understand that. I would feel the same way

Yes, I also understand that, too. But if it's not a question of being stingy, but only impatient, I'd maybe urge him/her even more towards the virtue of patience. It would be worth it.

But you are right, just wait until you can open it and you'll (hopefully?) find good reasons to recommend the full service at this moment. 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

my client has not declined a service but really just wants to postpone it to a later date.

 

One of my amusements in watch collecting discussion groups is Complaining about the high cost of watch repair. Then they also like to brag about how they never get There Rolex serviced and it runs great reinforcing how greedy the watchmaker is. 

The problem is the timing machine does not tell the whole story. Typically the gaskets will fail at some point in time moisture can get in and rust is really nice grinding things. Grinding of the keyless works for instance will not typically show up on the timing machine and there are quite a few other places where rust can be really bad or parts wearing out and they may or may not actually show up affecting the timing machine until you have a total failure.

Then there is the other complication of how often is the watch going to be worn? So a Rolex serviced and is only worn a couple of times a year can easily go way past its normal service interval and still work fine as the total accumulated hours of running even with no lubrication or poor lubrication isn't really going to be an issue.

Unfortunately with a lot of variables we don't have exact numbers which makes it hard to explain to a client. But you could try this what happens if you never change the oil in your automobile? The same influences apply a car driven every single day versus once or twice a year how long until the engine disintegrates. Or perhaps how expensive when you do have a problem.

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

My dilemma is that I am not able to work full time on the watch to finish it in the shortest possible time. In addition, I want to take the time I need to achieve the most perfect result possible and also take the opportunity to carefully document and photograph the whole process. Then, on occasion, create a service walkthrough of this, perhaps one of the world's most prized mass-produced movements.

May I make a suggestion which you already suspect find another project to do.

Why does the above quote bother me and how can I write it out really really short? Somewhere in the universe I'm helping somebody providing technical consultation basically. The Rolex is a 3035 older had rust damage. Prior servicing individuals which are quite common on Rolex obviously had no idea what they were doing at all. Instead a doing a walk-through a video will be made someday. Oh and the desire to be perfect wider to throw in some OCD quite a bit of it would be really nice and now the watch has to be more perfect than it was when I was made in the first place and it's a vintage Rolex how much time could that take the straighten out? So if your client worst-case scenario is willing to wait at least a year or more everything will be fine otherwise I would pass on doing this. Maybe everything will be fine maybe it will just be a cleaning may be LB lucky. Maybe you could run out by a lottery ticket right now and when $1 trillion. But the older the watch the more hands than it's been through an obsession with perfect and I would really pass on this watch.

[VWatchie]

14 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

One of my amusements in watch collecting discussion groups is Complaining about the high cost of watch repair. Then they also like to brag about how they never get There Rolex serviced and it runs great reinforcing how greedy the watchmaker is.

Well put John! Yes, isn't it amazing what imaginative conclusions ignorant people draw? Having been involved with watches as my main hobby for eight years, I still cannot understand how one can earn enough money to make a living repairing and servicing watches. I have just spent more than a full working day refurbishing a quartz watch (Mondaine) that cost about $300 new. If I'm lucky, someone might be willing to pay half of that at best to own the watch. After my own expenses and taxes, I'd be left with pretty much nothing. Me and my family would starve to death! What it takes is of course to be experienced and quick, and have the most efficient tools.

14 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Instead a doing a walk-through a video will be made someday.

There are already several excellent videos on YouTube showing how to service the Rolex calibre 3135. As always, there are bad examples too. Fortunately, I am experienced enough to quickly identify clunkers. If I recall correctly, Mark has at least two excellent videos on his channel for servicing the Rolex calibre 3135.

When I create a service walkthrough, it is primarily for my benefit. Partly because I find it very stimulating and partly because it makes it easier and saves time when I service the next movement of the same or similar calibre. I see it as a complement to the good videos that exist because these videos rarely name parts, describe which oils have been used, the exact assembly order, and so on. A good example I think is my service walkthrough of the ETA calibre 2892-A2 which even Mark to my delight appreciated.

14 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Oh and the desire to be perfect wider to throw in some OCD quite a bit of it would be really nice and now the watch has to be more perfect than it was when I was made in the first place and it's a vintage Rolex how much time could that take the straighten out?

Wow, you are reading way too much into my use of the word "perfect". What I should have written is that I want to have enough time to do a first-class job without stress. That is, should any unexpected problems or issues arise, I want to be able to take the time needed to deal with them in a correct or at least professionally accepted manner. I have fought and am still fighting my ambition towards perfection and feel that I have come some way! This means that I now enjoy working with watches much more. Here are some quotes about perfection that I appreciate very much and that I remind myself of when the "perfection devil" comes to visit.

"Don't let perfection be the enemy of the good."
    ~ @LittleWatchShop

"Perfection is expensive to approach and impossible to achieve!"
    ~ @Waggy
 

Edited May 31, 2024 by VWatchie

[VWatchie]

Now the watch is finally opened safely and correctly and I have made a first inspection. As expected, the rotor was so loose that it could not rotate. I have taken many pictures (more than needed I guess) and do not want to anticipate your reactions, comments, and observations but feel free to ask questions if you want something clarified or photographed.

The last four pictures in the series show the rotor after cleaning. I am very curious about your reactions, comments, and possible recommendations, especially from those of you with experiences with Rolex such as @Jon and @Knebo. Of course, comments from all of you are more than welcome!

 

This jewel is from the automatic device bridge. All the jewels on it look the same.

Edited June 22, 2024 by VWatchie

[Jon]

A design flaw Rolex refuse to let go of is the fixed axle, when others use bearings and because people listen to that chat about waiting for your watch to lose time, feeling stiff to wind, blah, blah... This is the obvious result of waiting for something to go wrong, which is a rotor turning without any lubrication which wears the axle to ridiculous proportions and takes the plating off the movement and rotor. If it is serviced often then this doesn't happen so often. The customer will give you a story with their watch, but the movement will always tell you the real story.

I usually replace the axle, and definitely when it is like this

Two things to watch out for, leave the calendar cam jumper spring in situ when cleaning and make sure you part the friction fitted cannon pinion that turns the date corrector. If it isn't taken apart, cleaned, lubricated, it will likely fail as a safety feature to stop damage if the quickset is engaged whilst close to midnight. Easily missed. Great movement to work on. Be careful not to mix screws up, as two are really similar and I've made that mistake. I think it was the crown wheel screw that is under the bridge, hence a normal right hand thread.

 

38 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

This jewel is from the automatic device bridge. All the jewels on it look the same.

All that wear created a great abrasive dust throughout the whole movement which settles in where there was something to stick to, such as lubricant. Now that has dissipated it has left that abrasive dust to do its work. Hopefully the damage isn't too bad, but I reckon you'll have some pivots to polish at least.

Edited June 22, 2024 by Jon

[VWatchie]

Thank you very much for your input @Jon, it is extremely valuable and much appreciated! 

Something that I reacted to was the appearance of the riveting. When I look at my Horotec stake, the crown has six protruding sections that are driven into the axle. When I look at the worn-out axle it has 12. In the article that @Knebo refers to it says:

"The steel used in these axles is extremely hard and the
diameter of the rivet is large enough that it is quite difficult
to form a good rivet using traditional methods similar
to those used on a balance staff. Although I have seen
many who have tried."

Could it be that the wrong type of stake has been used or is it perhaps Rolex original? In addition, it looks to me as if the riveting was too hard (11th, 17th, and 21st image in my previous post) that it affected/damaged the rotor itself. Am I wrong?

 

Edited June 22, 2024 by VWatchie

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 5/31/2024 at 12:14 PM, VWatchie said:

I have just spent more than a full working day refurbishing a quartz watch (Mondaine) that cost about $300 new. If I'm lucky, someone might be willing to pay half of that at best to own the watch. After my own expenses and taxes, I'd be left with pretty much nothing. Me and my family would starve to death! What it takes is of course to be experienced and quick, and have the most efficient tools

Exactly that H, i have a few customers that do some work in their homes themselves, then i go in and do the finishing up intricate parts of the job. They often ask how i manage to do the work in a fraction of the time that they spend doing it ?  Its just know-how,  40 years of handling and good tools applied in an efficient manner. Some of these customers make a fair job but the time spent doing it would make it non or low profit viable as a living for them.  I always used to tell my apprentices, " learn to do it right first, speed comes later and naturally " . When learning something new we take our time and each step follows the previous step, we concentrate on every aspect of each step. Experience with something teaches us to multitask steps, switch and even skip steps that we previously thought necessary, we make our own natural order and certain way of doing things to become more efficient. 

On 5/31/2024 at 12:14 PM, VWatchie said:

Well put John! Yes, isn't it amazing what imaginative conclusions ignorant people draw? Having been involved with watches as my main hobby for eight years, I still cannot understand how one can earn enough money to make a living repairing and servicing watches. I have just spent more than a full working day refurbishing a quartz watch (Mondaine) that cost about $300 new. If I'm lucky, someone might be willing to pay half of that at best to own the watch. After my own expenses and taxes, I'd be left with pretty much nothing. Me and my family would starve to death! What it takes is of course to be experienced and quick, and have the most efficient tools.

There are already several excellent videos on YouTube showing how to service the Rolex calibre 3135. As always, there are bad examples too. Fortunately, I am experienced enough to quickly identify clunkers. If I recall correctly, Mark has at least two excellent videos on his channel for servicing the Rolex calibre 3135.

When I create a service walkthrough, it is primarily for my benefit. Partly because I find it very stimulating and partly because it makes it easier and saves time when I service the next movement of the same or similar calibre. I see it as a complement to the good videos that exist because these videos rarely name parts, describe which oils have been used, the exact assembly order, and so on. A good example I think is my service walkthrough of the ETA calibre 2892-A2 which even Mark to my delight appreciated.

Wow, you are reading way too much into my use of the word "perfect". What I should have written is that I want to have enough time to do a first-class job without stress. That is, should any unexpected problems or issues arise, I want to be able to take the time needed to deal with them in a correct or at least professionally accepted manner. I have fought and am still fighting my ambition towards perfection and feel that I have come some way! This means that I now enjoy working with watches much more. Here are some quotes about perfection that I appreciate very much and that I remind myself of when the "perfection devil" comes to visit.

"Don't let perfection be the enemy of the good."
    ~ @LittleWatchShop

"Perfection is expensive to approach and impossible to achieve!"
    ~ @Waggy
 

Striving for perfection has a cut-off point and everyone's is different, it can alter during a situation and also  change generally within us over time. As a young guy i was keen and eager to earn money fast, over time i became more conscious of the fact that i needed to do better work then as i matured futher i realised my expectations had grown way above what anyone else's were, i eventually found a balance that i was happy with that made me decent money and didnt cause me ocd stress. 

[Knebo]

Oh dear @VWatchie, that doesn't look good 

Changing the rotor axle is obviously imperative. 

I hope not all pivots are affected by this metal dust and that you can seve some/most of those that are affected. I think I recall seeing a video of yours where you looked like an absolute master on your Jacot lathe. So if anyone can save those pivots, it'll be you. Otherwise prepare for ridiculous prices for NOS parts. 

I wonder if the jewels for the rotor axle are unaffected or need to be changed, too. 

I don't have enough experience to really judge the axle rivet. But it looks correct to me. Probably original Rolex. 

My Horotec punch for 3035 & 3135 also only has 6 segments. But I've just discovered that CousinsUK now also sells their own brand stakes for Rolex axles and that one has 12 segments. 

I think you'll be ok with either. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

17 hours ago, Jon said:

18 hours ago, VWatchie said:

 

All that wear created a great abrasive dust throughout the whole movement which settles in where there was something to stick to, such as lubricant. Now that has dissipated it has left that abrasive dust to do its work.

This is why i prefer some mineral lubrication in a movement, when it gums up, i think of it like an auto service due indicator.

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

This is why i prefer some mineral lubrication in a movement, when it gums up, i think of it like an auto service due indicator.

I agree! Synthetic oils are both a blessing and a curse.

I have just had a phone meeting with the owner of the watch and we have agreed to a full service. Unfortunately, it will take a while as I will soon be leaving the workbench for vacation, but fortunately, the owner has the patience to wait until the job is done. Hopefully, we won't have to buy any spare parts but I have warned the owner that in the worst case it may be necessary. I will post back to the thread if any questions need clarification. Thank you for all the input and documentation you have shared so far! 

[Jon]

8 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Hopefully, we won't have to buy any spare parts but I have warned the owner that in the worst case it may be necessary.

Give me a shout if you do need parts for this movement. There are many generic parts out there, but I always give the client the choice between generic cheaper parts or genuine Rolex parts that cost more. Gleave and Co. do some good generic spares for Rolex' https://gleave.london/rolex-parts-by-caliber/

And, if you ring them for advice, they'll know what you are talking about, unlike Cousins.

Unfortunately, the owner Graham Gleave, who is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to anything watch related is very ill with cancer at the moment. His sons are taking over the business. Please support these guys through the hard times ahead for their family and buy from them.

Their rotor axles for all Rolex movements are as good as original axles and the other generic Rolex parts are really good quality and better than Cousins stock generic parts

8 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I agree! Synthetic oils are both a blessing and a curse.

I wish we could go back in time to have mineral oils and greases that congealed and stopped the watch and save all that wear from the movement running with no lubrication, as the watch stopped to say it needs servicing

8 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I have just had a phone meeting with the owner of the watch and we have agreed to a full service.

So glad the owner decided to get their watch serviced and I'm sure it is good hands with you Hakan!

Edited June 23, 2024 by Jon

[RichardHarris123]

I hope the new generation improve the website, being able to speak to someone is important but for a  majority of things, a decent search engine for their site is a priority. 

[Knebo]

21 hours ago, VWatchie said:

have just had a phone meeting with the owner of the watch and we have agreed to a full service.

When I saw the pictures, I was going to say that it should now be easy to convince the owner of the importance of a full service. 

Glad it's going that way. 

 

13 hours ago, Jon said:

Unfortunately, the owner Graham Gleave, who is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to anything watch related is very ill with cancer at the moment

That's very sad. My father passed away of cancer just two years ago. It must be hard for the sons to focus on the business. Good luck to them! 

[VWatchie]

19 hours ago, Jon said:

Unfortunately, the owner Graham Gleave, who is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to anything watch related is very ill with cancer at the moment. His sons are taking over the business. Please support these guys through the hard times ahead for their family and buy from them.

I will try to do that and keep my fingers crossed that it will work out for them.

6 hours ago, Knebo said:

That's very sad. My father passed away of cancer just two years ago. It must be hard for the sons to focus on the business. Good luck to them!

My father passed away last November. Despite reaching a mature and secure age, it affected me more than I thought it would. It has fundamentally changed my perspective on life and has been a stressful adjustment. But life goes on.

19 hours ago, Jon said:

I wish we could go back in time to have mineral oils and greases that congealed and stopped the watch and save all that wear from the movement running with no lubrication, as the watch stopped to say it needs servicing

I have thought this "blasphemous" thought myself many times but not dared to express it but when a professional like you leads the way, I don't hesitate to follow 

Edited June 24, 2024 by VWatchie

[VWatchie]

The first step is now complete. Hard to avoid "a slightly" elevated pulse before the first hammer blow but it may not be so strange when what is under the hammer can cost several hundreds to replace if something goes wrong. Repairing a Rolex by hitting it hard with a hammer feels unreal  

The operation appears to have been successful so far. The rotor looks completely intact without a trace of impact. I was worried that the decoration would be damaged or even worse that it would bend, but I now understand why the rotor is not at risk of damage. 100% of the energy from the hammer blow ends up on the rotor axle. I had hoped that the axle would come off after the first blow but I had to hit it three or four times, and really hard before the axle came off and the rotor jumped up a bit.

Now the next pulse-booster remains, to rivet the new axle. Wish me luck and shout if you see anything strange in the pictures. Now I'm going to have a cup of coffee with real cream and breathe out 

[Knebo]

That looks great, @VWatchie

When you insert the new axle (before riveting!), check if it holds in place by itself (i.e. a bit of friction). If it just falls out, it may be good to take a flat punch that just fits as indicated in the picture below and close the hole ever so slightly.

But before you actually do that, maybe @Jon can confirm/deny that this is a good idea.

 

 

 

Hahahaha, absolutely!

9 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Repairing a Rolex by hitting it hard with a hammer feels unreal 

 

I'm just seeing this. That's still very recent... my sincere condolences! 

I hope you have many lovely memories to focus on. 

5 hours ago, VWatchie said:

My father passed away last November. Despite reaching a mature and secure age, it affected me more than I thought it would. It has fundamentally changed my perspective on life and has been a stressful adjustment.

[VWatchie]

4 hours ago, Knebo said:

That looks great, @VWatchie

Thanks! 

4 hours ago, Knebo said:

When you insert the new axle (before riveting!), check if it holds in place by itself (i.e. a bit of friction). If it just falls out, it may be good to take a flat punch that just fits as indicated in the picture below and close the hole ever so slightly.

I have just checked it and the axle does not stick when pressed into place. I estimate the play to be 1-2/100mm, i.e. very small. Nevertheless, I would assume it is good or even necessary to shrink the hole so that sufficient friction is achieved.

When you shrink the hole on a barrel bridge, you use two dome-shaped punches opposite each other and then open the hole using a smoothing broach. That works really great, but maybe it is a flat punch that should be used in this case!? I am still unsure of the practicality of it so all tips are welcome.

4 hours ago, Knebo said:

But before you actually do that, maybe @Jon can confirm/deny that this is a good idea.

That would be absolutely lovely! I'll be waiting for @Jon's next visit!

4 hours ago, Knebo said:

I'm just seeing this. That's still very recent... my sincere condolences! 

I hope you have many lovely memories to focus on.

Thank you for your participation and yes, I have many wonderful memories to look back on!

Edited June 24, 2024 by VWatchie

[Knebo]

 

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

When you shrink the hole on a barrel bridge, you use two dome-shaped punches opposite each other and then open the hole using a smoothing broach. That works really great, but maybe it is a flat punch that should be used in this case!? I am still unsure of the practicality of it so all tips are welcome.

Yes, that's true. I do the same for barrel bridges. But without too much reflection, I followed someone on YouTube with the flat punch. 

Jon to the rescue please! 

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I have many wonderful memories to look back on!

That's wonderful! 

Edited June 24, 2024 by Knebo

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

Yes, that's true. I do the same for barrel bridges. But without too much reflection, I followed someone on YouTube with the flat punch. 

Thinking a bit more about it using the same technique as when closing the bearing for the mainspring arbor on the barrel bridge would deform the rotor on the top side. A flat punch on the inside must be the correct or at least better option. Can you recollect the video in which it was shown?

I’d really like to hear @Jon’s thoughts about this!

Edited June 24, 2024 by VWatchie

[Knebo]

Yes, found it! 

Starting st 9.52, he starts talking about this issue and the flat punch he uses. 

[Jon]

24 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I’d really like to hear @Jon’s thoughts about this!

The rivet will do the job of holding the axle in place even with a small amount of play in the rotor, unless the hole is really sloppy. 

[VWatchie]

11 hours ago, Knebo said:

Starting st 9.52, he starts talking about this issue and the flat punch he uses.

OK, so same video that you linked to previously. I missed that part so I'll take a look again. Thank you very much!

10 hours ago, Jon said:

The rivet will do the job of holding the axle in place even with a small amount of play in the rotor, unless the hole is really sloppy.

OK, thanks! Since the play is far from really sloppy, I think I'll simply try to hit the axle without trying to reduce the hole first. Should I use my steel hammer (55 grams) or do you think I should hit it with my newly purchased brass hammer (84 grams)?

The head of the brass hammer is bigger and heavier than the steel hammer and that will make it easier to hit the right spot. Also, I'm hoping that the brass can protect the axle/rotor if I hit too hard. I don't mind if I get a deep gash in my hammerhead. Or, the brass is simply too soft for this job, yes? I have no experience with brass hammers so I find it difficult to make a judgment on my own.

[Jon]

Use a hammer you feel comfortable and are used to using. It has to be suitably heavy enough though. I find a watchmaker hammer with a 25 - 30 g head is way too light in weight, so I use a brass hammer. in a job like this I like a heavier hammer and reduce the weight of the blow on the stake, because all the action is in the wrist, rather than a hammer that is slightly too light and you end up hitting it much harder with less control.

I don't think you realise how hard this has to be hit, but you have to be careful going over the top and destroying the axle and damaging the rotor in the process.

I've got one or two axles to do this week, so I'll see if I can shoot a quick video of the process.

[Knebo]

5 minutes ago, Jon said:

I've got one or two axles to do this week, so I'll see if I can shoot a quick video of the process.

That would be super cool!!

 

 

[VWatchie]

18 minutes ago, Jon said:

Use a hammer you feel comfortable and are used to using. It has to be suitably heavy enough though. I find a watchmaker hammer with a 25 - 30 g head is way too light in weight, so I use a brass hammer. in a job like this I like a heavier hammer and reduce the weight of the blow on the stake, because all the action is in the wrist, rather than a hammer that is slightly too light and you end up hitting it much harder with less control.

Thanks, Jon and that makes a lot of sense to me. That's the kind of reasoning that made me think of my newly acquired brass hammer which I bought for removing bezels the way you described in a different thread.

18 minutes ago, Jon said:

I don't think you realise how hard this has to be hit, but you have to be careful going over the top and destroying the axle and damaging the rotor in the process.

Right again! That's my main worry. I've been trying to picture myself doing the job thinking of the axle, the weight of the hammer, the crowned punch and the speed with which to hit it. It's not easy when you've never done it.

18 minutes ago, Jon said:

I've got one or two axles to do this week, so I'll see if I can shoot a quick video of the process.

Wow, that would be extremely useful and appreciated!  I will wait for now. Fortunately, I am in no hurry.

Edited June 25, 2024 by VWatchie