B-Dip residue?

[pent]

So I was cleaning an especially dirty balance spring with B-dip because several turns were sticking together.  However, after a wash and dry, it seems there are more turns sticking due to the B-Dip.  I can see it clearly in-between the spring turns and it is not evaporating.  I even stretched the spring upwards a bit to let them air out and they continue to stick.  This is after two washes.  You can still see the liquid between the springs.

Not sure if anyone has seen this, but I don't know if this is an indicator of my dip going bad or being contaminated.  I would rise with IPA, but the stud and collet aren't pinned--they are either glued or shellacked so I won't risk it.  If I keep seeing this, I'll probably switch back to a heptane or naphtha for this type of cleaning, but I wanted to see if anyone else has seen this with B-Dip. 

[KarlvonKoln]

One-dip or naphtha should be safe, but are you sure it isn't magnetized?  I would also check that.  Although, if that balance is from an Elgin 760 0r 761, I would think it would have a hairspring of non-magnetic alloy.

[pent]

On 5/5/2024 at 8:44 PM, KarlvonKoln said:

One-dip or naphtha should be safe, but are you sure it isn't magnetized?  I would also check that.  Although, if that balance is from an Elgin 760 0r 761, I would think it would have a hairspring of non-magnetic alloy.

Yes, threw it on the demagnetizer before I cleaned it to be sure.  This picture doesn't show it well, but I can definitely see liquid where the turns meet up.

[KarlvonKoln]

You could also use a very fine artist's brush to brush between the coils.  If you get a size 00 or even 000 that should be small enough for convenience, and with bristles so fine that they are incapable of damaging the hairspring.  Get a good one though, like Windsor-Newton or similar.  I have never had a Windsor-Newton brush shed on my art or other work.  You want a soft brush that will not shed.

Edited May 8 by KarlvonKoln

[Waggy]

On 5/6/2024 at 4:44 AM, KarlvonKoln said:

are you sure it isn't magnetized?

I was about to ask the same question, it sounds a lot like magnetism which is a quick fix (assuming you have access to the correct tool) and ideally something you should do anyway.

[HectorLooi]

Sometimes a sticky hairspring might unravel after using a demagnetizer. But if you push the coils until they touch, they will stick together again.

I find that brushing the coils gently while submerged in naptha the most effective way to cure a sticky hairspring. Sometimes it requires 2 or 3 washes to cure it.

I often wondered what causes a hairspring to become sticky. The 9010 in the jewels are unlikely to drip onto the hairspring. The other possibility is the 9415 on the pallets. But then that's on the other side, below the balance. Can it "splash" onto the hairspring? 

Looking at the stickiness and tenacity, I'm leaning towards 9415.

[Waggy]

Forgot to mention that only demagnetize a balance when its in the movement, otherwise the magnetic field will snatch the coils and damage them

[pent]

Well, this stickiness was only on 1 or 2 turns at first.  After using the B-Dip, I can actually manipulate the the turns in such a way that ALL of them stick on one side and I can pull them apart and you will still see a few sticking still so there is either residue from the B-dip or the initial crud that B-dip didn't remove.  

What bothers me most is that I can still see liquid in-between the turns holding them together, as if the dip didn't completely evaporate.  When I get a chance, I'm going to try an alcohol or lighter fluid dip and see what happens.  I don't have a very fine brush for this, so that might have to be the next step.

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 minutes ago, pent said:

Well, this stickiness was only on 1 or 2 turns at first.  After using the B-Dip, I can actually manipulate the the turns in such a way that ALL of them stick on one side and I can pull them apart and you will still see a few sticking still so there is either residue from the B-dip or the initial crud that B-dip didn't remove.  

What bothers me most is that I can still see liquid in-between the turns holding them together, as if the dip didn't completely evaporate.  When I get a chance, I'm going to try an alcohol or lighter fluid dip and see what happens.  I don't have a very fine brush for this, so that might have to be the next step.

I use a nylon bristle from a brush to run around the coils or a thin piece of copper wire, you need .1 - .15mm.

Edited May 9 by Neverenoughwatches

[Geotex]

We think about these preps as "one-dips" partly because they are terrific solvents but also because the parts they are used on are often cleaner in general than many other parts. But old oils petrify, and even something like B-Dip can't clean up over-soiled parts without some extra effort, as mentioned above. There is an intermediate step during cleaning where the solvent can partially dissolve tarry residues so they have a more liquid varnish-like consistency, and that could well be what you are seeing on the coils after two washes. I wouldn't worry that your B-Dip was contaminated before you used it on this hairspring, but it I wouldn't re-use that aliquot AFTER this cleaning!

[oldhippy]

Demagnetize it first and the tools you are using. Get yourself a tin of  Ronsonol lighter fluid. A small jar with a screw on lid. Put the balance in that for a few minutes, get some tissue paper put the balance on that then dry with you bench blower, oil both staff pivots and put it back in the movement. This is what I always used to do never had any problems. I have tried one dip and it was rubbish a waste of money. Ronsonol is very friendly to shellac so no worries there. 

 

[pent]

Finally got back to this project.  Lighter fluid was the winner here.  As soon as I dipped the spring into it, the turns separated like magic.  Dried it up and the balance spring now looks perfect so it seems it was a residue of some sort either from the B dip or the crud it was trying to remove.

I'll use what B dip I have left on jewels since I haven't had a problem on those yet, but I think once it's gone I won't be using it again and will stick to good old wholesome solvents.

[Knebo]

there is certainly a possibility that you B-dip is contaminated. if you've used it for a while and a lot of oil has been absorbed by it over time. In the end, it rather spreads the old oil. 

It has happened to me the same why you describe it. 

Since B-dip is ridiculously expensive, I moved to washing benzine and Essence Renata. I highly recommend the latter. Works perfectly. I keep small quantities in small hotel-style mini jam jars and replace the solvent rather frequently.

I'd suggest you throw away the remaining B-dip and don't use it anything else. 

 

[caseback]

On 5/9/2024 at 6:25 AM, Waggy said:

Forgot to mention that only demagnetize a balance when its in the movement, otherwise the magnetic field will snatch the coils and damage them

When demagnetizing a balance thats not in the movement, I put it in a small jar with some hexane and place that on the demagnetizer. That way the coils won't get damaged.

[ColinC]

I too have had a problem with residue from B-dip on hair springs.
I bought a bottle of expensive B-dip and put mabe a 1/3rd of it into a separate (clean!) jar and have been using it to clean pallet forks, balance and end stones.

I am not sure when the problem started but I definitely have seen (at around 22x mag)  a residue on a balance cock and had hairspring coils sticking together.  I don't know if my B-dip has become contaminated but it looks clean and I have only been putting a select few dry components in there.

To remove the residue I gave it a good rinse in naphtha (lighter fluid) and then a quick swish in IPA followed by some puffs from a blower to quickly evaporate the IPA before it damages the shellac.  This procedure has worked really well and I have had good results (better than naphtha alone)

 

Edited June 10 by ColinC

[Curare]

I've been experimenting with MAF (mass airflow) cleaner for hairsprings and pallet forks.

For those who aren't familiar with MAF cleaner its for cleaning the very fine wires in the MAF sensor in your engine that measures airflow to determine injector duration etc etc.

Claims its safe around plastics and leaves no reside.

Just a quick spray in a small bowl and a blow with the puffer in solution to agitate then out and dried.

You can literally see the dirt particles coming of the part as you spray it.

As yet it has had not effects of the shellac although its only in there for 15 secs.

Cleans really well and doesn't leave the hairspring sticking together.

Probably contradicting myself here, but I wouldn't try it on a Rolex

Regards

CJ

[HectorLooi]

Interesting. Have you read the MSDS?

It's basically hexane, naptha and methanol.

If used as described, it's probably safe but don't soak shellac in it.