Incabloc Lyre Spring & Low Earth Orbit

[DDean]

OK, so long story short, I'm working my way through Mark's courses using a "Sea-gul ST36" (or ST3600 from some vendors) AKA an ETA 6497 clone. as a practice piece.  I've had it fully appart and cleaned it, and have had it fully back together an "running", but only briefly as my oil hadn't arrived at the time.  In the course of that work, I saw no markings on the movement that would tell me if it was a true Sea-gul or just a clone of their clone of the original ETA movement.

Well, fast forward to this weekend, when my oils arrived in my mailbox and I sat down to try my hand at oiling.  Everything was going swimmingly until I got to the shock setting on the top of the balance cock.  I was able to open the lyre spring without issue, but in attempting to swing the open to access the cap jewel and chaton, I apparently accidentally pressed the launch button as I sent the lyre spring into low earth orbit.  Like most things that make into such orbits it came back down at a place not too far from where it started, but of course that also means that it is no longer in the setting.

So my task is now to get said spring back into setting.  What I have read so far tells me that I seem to have two options:

1. Another thread here seems to indicate that the spring came out without taking the balance cock apart, therefore it should go back without the need for that procedure.  That seems a bit pie in the sky for me, but the posts in said thread also gave some high level information about how to get the spring back in (putting it at an angle to the channel cut in the cock and canted so that the tabs fit in the slots, followed by some "wiggling" to get it turned around the right direction.)  I've tried this a couple of times, which have lead to more trips to low earth orbit, but with successful recovery of the orbital vehicle after each trip.  This thread also suggests that what I did to cause the initial launch was to push the spring "back" with more pressure on one side than the other, which put it under tension and caused it to deform out the slot either on one side or at the end (where there is apparently no "back stop".)
2. The other option appears to be varying degrees of disassembly of the balance cock.  Some things I've read suggest that the whole shock setting needs to come out, while other threads here suggest that I only need to remove the regulator arm and the arm carrying the balance stud.  After the last trip the spring made, this is seeming like a better option, but I'm super short on details on how to do what needs to be done.  if I am following correctly:
   1. I need to loose the balance spring stud screw so the stud is not held in the arm.
   2. I need to somehow disengage the balance spring from the regulator (all the regulators I've seen in videos look nothing like what I see on the balance cock I have.)  What I've seen on the interwebs is a couple of "pins" that the spring passes through.  What I see on my assembly is something that looks more like a single pin with a "V" shaped notch cut in the bottom of it.  The spring is secured in that notch with something that I guessed was glue, Posts here suggest that on some of these movements glue is in fact used.  So I'm trying to figure out how to tell, how to soften dissolve it (I'm guessing IPA or acetone) and how to put it back when I'm done (superglue?  UV glue?)
   3. With the spring detached from the cock, I've read that the regulator and stud carrier are basically glorified C clamps around the shock setting and that one removes them by slipping a razor blade under one side of each and prizing them up.  I assume that they go back in the reverse manner like another C clamp, but that again is only a guess.  The place I got this information from seemed to leave that bit out.
   4. Once I have one or both arms off the shock setting the above mentioned post seemed to indicate that I could just slide the spring back in the slot, though again, I'm interpolating between the lines I read.  The alternative that I've seen demonstrated on high end movements on Youtube is to remove the entire shock setting and to replace the spring from "underneath" rotating the setting so that spring basically falls into place. I'm not anxious to try this method, as I don't have a jeweling tool to put the shock setting back into place.  That not to mention that the professional watch maker who did the demonstration described "fiddly work."

So at the end of the day I'm looking for a little guidance on which pathway to follow, or if I've missed something obvious, a new direction to follow.  If this is a repair that just need to wait until my skills improve I'm totally good with that, I can get another of these movements in relatively short order, I just don't want to treat this one as disposable, and I do want to make an honest effort at fixing it and learning from this experience.

Thank you in advance for reading my ramblings and for any suggestions that you might have!

[HectorLooi]

The Chinese incabloc springtend to take flight at the slightest provocation. There is no need to push out the setting as some post suggest. You just need to grip the spring and muscle it in.

My favorite tool for accomplishing that is an eyebrow tweezer. It has to be wide enough to grip across the width of the spring. Then get one end of the hinge in first and turn spring till the other end seats in. Next, use a pegwood the keep the spring forward to prevent the hinge from slipping out from behind.

You might want to keep your table clutter free, as the spring would probably take a few more short flights. 

[Mercurial]

This post has some pictures that describe how to get the spring back into the setting without having to disassemble anything. 

With patience, this approach works. 

The advice that the spring will ‘float’ back in when positioned just right is spot on. If you try to push it so it flexes and pops back into the setting, it’ll probably just fly away, as you’ve already found. 

Hope that helps,

Mark

[DDean]

Thank you to both of you!  I've been somewhat derailed by this quandary for a couple of days now.

7 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

The Chinese incabloc springtend to take flight at the slightest provocation. There is no need to push out the setting as some post suggest. You just need to grip the spring and muscle it in.

My favorite tool for accomplishing that is an eyebrow tweezer. It has to be wide enough to grip across the width of the spring. Then get one end of the hinge in first and turn spring till the other end seats in. Next, use a pegwood the keep the spring forward to prevent the hinge from slipping out from behind.

You might want to keep your table clutter free, as the spring would probably take a few more short flights. 

I am guessing that the point of the wider tweezers is to support the whole spring at the same time in an effort to prevent it going under tension...

I have already discovered the Zen of a clutter free space, and trying to keep my work well away from the edge, however the most terrifying of the flights wasn't so short, I had my work in the middle of the table and nothing else around.  That particular launch was towards me.  I distinctly recall feeling the spring hit my left hand as it escaped.  I only found it by dumb luck, on the floor, between the legs of my chair.  I need to order a pack of replacements just in case.  I think I recall a thread discussing where to find them, and the differences between the clones and the authentic ETA ones, pointing out that they're not interchangeable (the clones being longer IIRC).  Now I just have to find that thread again.  What I haven't mastered is the zen of the search function here.  I'm sure I"ll get that down eventually.

3 hours ago, Mercurial said:

This post has some pictures that describe how to get the spring back into the setting without having to disassemble anything. 

With patience, this approach works. 

The advice that the spring will ‘float’ back in when positioned just right is spot on. If you try to push it so it flexes and pops back into the setting, it’ll probably just fly away, as you’ve already found. 

Hope that helps,

Mark

So this is similar to, but different from one of the posts I had found in my original searches (or maybe I'm just hallucinating, I can't find the post I thought I remember).  The bits about the corner filled in a gap in what I'd read before.  At least I have a more clear picture in my head about what needs to happen now.  Yes, I've learned about how touchy these springs are.  What I'm not sure I have a good grasp on is the understanding of what causes the spring to flex, other than to say "the slightest little touch"  I think I'm going to try a small bit of Rodico to position the spring next time.

[DDean]

On 4/16/2024 at 6:27 AM, Mercurial said:

With patience, this approach works. 

The advice that the spring will ‘float’ back in when positioned just right is spot on. If you try to push it so it flexes and pops back into the setting, it’ll probably just fly away, as you’ve already found.

So I just wanted to say "thank you" again.  The angle is the key bit it seems and yes, it did basically just fall, or float, back into position when I got it lined up just right.

I had meant to add that now that I see how it goes in, I totally see how it came out in the first place, and that whomever cloned the original movement didn't pay much attention to the fine details around the setting or how it interfaces with the balance cock or the "rings" on the regulator and/or stud carrier arms.

[JohnR725]

11 hours ago, DDean said:

didn't pay much attention to the fine details

unfortunately paying attention to details bumps up the cost. Which is why they shortchange on manufacturing steps if they can.

[Neverenoughwatches]

14 hours ago, DDean said:

So I just wanted to say "thank you" again.  The angle is the key bit it seems and yes, it did basically just fall, or float, back into position when I got it lined up just right.

I had meant to add that now that I see how it goes in, I totally see how it came out in the first place, and that whomever cloned the original movement didn't pay much attention to the fine details around the setting or how it interfaces with the balance cock or the "rings" on the regulator and/or stud carrier arms.

Instead of using tweezers, put a piece of rodico onto a toothpick or pegwood. Then set your spring to the rodico, this way the spring is not under any tension when floating it back into the bloc. As you bump into the bloc when trying to find the entrance the rodico will give but still holds onto the spring ie. You wont have the rigidity of tweezers.

[DDean]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Instead of using tweezers, put a piece of rodico onto a toothpick or pegwood.

I did in fact use Rodico to get the spring into general position and "hold" it there while I used a fine oiler to make subtle positional adjustments.

[DDean]

Just a note for those who come searching for information on this topic in the future.  I did eventually find the Mark's video on how to replace these springs, as someone observed, he does in fact make the replacement look easy.  (It actually is relatively easy once you have the knack of it.)

If you're enrolled in one of Mark's online courses, the demonstration of how to replace this spring is in the Bonus Videos section of his course site, and is called "C2B1 – Sea-Gull Style Shock Springs".

[rossjackson01]

2 hours ago, DDean said:

Just a note for those who come searching for information on this topic in the future.  I did eventually find the Mark's video on how to replace these springs, as someone observed, he does in fact make the replacement look easy.  (It actually is relatively easy once you have the knack of it.)

If you're enrolled in one of Mark's online courses, the demonstration of how to replace this spring is in the Bonus Videos section of his course site, and is called "C2B1 – Sea-Gull Style Shock Springs".

Worth its weight in gold. 

[Bonefixer]

17 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Worth its weight in gold. 

An incabloc spring? About 10p at the current price