Remove Jauch movement from West German mantle clock?

[mbwatch]

Hi all - Relatives handed me a modern mantle clock from the early 1980's that hasn't been working properly or at all. It's a Westminster chime. They actually did have it serviced by someone who maintains the clocks at a local museum just a few years ago, but apparently it never worked correctly. It has a movement marked Jauch P.L. 12cm / 6 82. I never worked on a clock before and am already very nervous about dealing with powerful mainsprings. I do not plan to disassemble the whole movement because I don't have a clock mainspring winder.

To start with, I need to know how to get the movement out of the case. I do not see any visible screws on the inside bracketing the movement into the wood. I do see some tall brass nuts (visible in photos). My first question is, can the movement be removed by loosening those nuts if I can find a small wrench to slide back there? I assumed I would need to take off the clock face, but it is not secured with screws either. It has several small brass tacks securing it to the wood case and I don't want to risk damage by prying on those unless that's the correct way in. I thought this would be the easy part.

The clock runs, especially without the pendulum installed but the escapement stutters every 2 minutes or so (I have not yet timed the exact stutter interval). But the main thing is the lever or switch at 3:00 controlling the chime is totally immobile. It feels like it is wedged against something else; it won't even wiggle and I suspect whatever is going on with that may be responsible for the periodic resistance on the escapement.

So can I get this movement out the back or do I need to start pulling out these little brass nails? Thanks for your expertise! And sorry for the poor photos - I slotted my phone into the clock case blindly.

[Kalanag]

It looks as if the dial has to come off first 

[mbwatch]

31 minutes ago, Kalanag said:

It looks as if the dial has to come off first 

That's unfortunate. I hoped that wouldn't be the case.

I did just time the escapement stutter and it occurs every 1020 ticks. That's 2'50" when the pendulum is not installed, and I think it works out to about ~5'30" if the pendulum is in place (though it won't usually run past the stutter if the pendulum is present). This strongly suggests something in the train, hopefully not a broken tooth.

[Bod]

I've worked on a westminister clock that wouldn't run for any lenght of time.

Removed the mechanism from the case, mounted the mechanism on a block of wood, worked perfectly!

Back in ths case, no go, just as before.

Turned out the "chime/silent" lever was interfered with by the case, this Smiths clock could never have run properly.  Adjust the lever, the clock now runs reliably.

 

Bod

[clockboy]

Not familiar with this movement but it looks like the dial has to be removed by removing the the dial pins.

[mbwatch]

Thanks everyone. I'm going to start on removing the dial then. I believe I'll be able to push out many of the pins from the inside of the case where they protrude so as not to risk exterior damage. I'm timing it right now, pendulum in situ, where it trips over itself and it is 5 minutes on the nose. I'll be interested to see what I find when the movement is out.

1 hour ago, Bod said:

Turned out the "chime/silent" lever was interfered with by the case, this Smiths clock could never have run properly.  Adjust the lever, the clock now runs reliably.

@Bod What you describe sounds basically what I think I just found. The chime lever appears to be wedged against the long brass nut securing the movement into the case. I think I might only need to free that up if there's a position for the nut where the lever doesn't collide, and call it a day.

1 hour ago, clockboy said:

Not familiar with this movement but it looks like the dial has to be removed by removing the the dial pins.

Thank you @clockboy . It was much easier to take off than I expected. I used a flat faced stake and pushed all the pins out from the back. After I put a little glue in that split I'm confident it will be easy to put back together.

[watchweasol]

Hi. You can self build a mainspring winder, plenty of plans available on the net , or spend over £300 for a ready made one or even more from Bergeron, I built two of my own and they have served well. If you are not familiar with clocks do some reading ( Mike Watters) Donald De Carle, Laurie Penman, Brian Loomes have all written books on the subject and are most informative.  A pair of oblique top cutters will remove the pins safely, although you have manage£ to push them out ok. Member Old Hippy is the main man on clocks having spent 30 years fixing them. No doubt he will chip in with words of wisdom you would do well to heed.

Can you post some pictures of the clock de cased please.     Thank you

[mbwatch]

35 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Can you post some pictures of the clock de cased please.  

I will add some photos later. Right now it's back in the case after I freed up the chime lever and I'm letting it run.  I believe there might be further issues because it does want to stutter every 5 min.

I have to figure out some sort of jig to hold up the movement alone since its chime hammers come out the bottom. I'll see what I can put together then get some photos of the bare movement. It's -18°C so cutting wood out in the garage isn't how I want to spend the afternoon.

42 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

You can self build a mainspring winder, plenty of plans available on the net , or spend over £300 for a ready made one or even more from Bergeron, I built two of my own and they have served well

I have looked into some plans, but I doubt I'll pursue it because I don't plan to work on more clocks after this. I will say I was surprised and refreshed to find out how much more affordable clockmakers' tools are on ebay compared with watchmakers' tools.

[watchweasol]

Hi  I have several jigs all home made, the simplest one is a sheet of wood with a cut out in and screw the clock to that clamped in a vice or with a heavy wood base. As long as clock tools don’t have the name Bergon on them they are quit cheap, another factor is the word “ vintage”. The price goes up.  When ever possible I make my own tools. Spring winders , movement stands. And the like.

the stuttering could be due tip a badly adjusted escapement, the depthing wrong , bent tooth, worn pallet.  It’s usually referred to as flutter. It Wii be in that region.

[oldhippy]

It unscrews from the front and seeing circlips and not pins it is not that old. it looks like the barrels can be removed with out taking the whole movement apart. I would like to see the movement out of its case  showing front and back plates and between the plates before I say anymore.

[clockboy]

If this is the first clock repair/ service then a Westminster chime movement will be a challenge indeed. I would approach with caution and a lot research. I agree with oldhippy it looks like a modern movement. 

Edited January 15 by clockboy

[mbwatch]

3 hours ago, clockboy said:

If this is the first clock repair/ service then a Westminster chime movement will be a challenge indeed. I would approach with caution and a lot research. I agree with oldhippy it looks like a modern movement. 

For sure. My goal is not a real service since I don't have the tooling. Since I freed up the lever and put in beat, it ran for 15 hours before stopping again... a great improvement already. When I get it mounted up in a jig I need to look at the wheel (4th? 3rd in a clock train?) that meshes with the escape wheel's pinion and maybe one further. Since it's fluttering/catching/jerking on a 5min interval, I'm hoping to find something obvious and easy like a hunk of dried oil dried on a tooth. If it is anything worse than that, I'll be handing it back to them so they can go to their clockmaker with a slightly more informed description of its running condition and faults.

5 hours ago, oldhippy said:

It unscrews from the front and seeing circlips and not pins it is not that old.

They got it in the early-mid 1980's.

I'll be building a jig today with whatever odds and ends I have in the house. More photos later!

[mbwatch]

Update - photos for @oldhippy now that I've got it rigged up in some scrap wood. I can't believe this clock was serviced 4-5 years ago, especially since it has not been running for 3-4 years. It is filthy inside. On the last wheel before the escapement, there were blobs of black crud on and between most teeth. As the wheel has gone by, I have been gently brushing each tooth with a sharp wedge of pegwood to clear most of that out of there. Same with the escape wheel pinion.

Is it possible I could just brush a solvent like naphtha onto those wheels as they rotate past to aid in scrubbing the oil off the teeth? I'm also considering flushing the oil sinks with a bit of naphtha then re-oiling, though there is a ton of oil in them now. I still can't/don't want to disassemble this thing since its outside my experience.

The only things in this movement that look dry are the escape wheel teeth and the pallets. Should I touch them with any lubrication?

Thanks!

Back plate

Front plate

Escapement

Others:

Left:

Top:

Right

Escape wheel pinion and the wheel I suspect is occasionally binding.

[watchweasol]

Hi depending how you want to go about it, you could remove the mainsprings as they are mounted in as separate piece.  Firstl let down the power of the springs.  Get a seven inch of broom shaft and bore a hole in the flat end the same size as the key then saw a slot down the hole so that it fits over the key handle and on to the key shaft, this is your let down tool . Sand the handle smooth, no splinters. Place over the winding square and take the tension of the spring off the click pawl and allow the shaft to rotate slowley in your hand untill all power has been released. Do this with the other two springs. Now all power is off the clock the spring barrels can be removed.  Once the springs are coming off the movement mark each one Striking barrel.  Going. Barrel.  Chime Barrel and the positions they were in. Take pictures at each stage.  Now you have the mechanism separated from the barrels you can wash the movement in petrol outside the house or shed or wherever you are, plenty of ventilation. Stand on an old towel or such like to drain and dry off. When completely dry inspect all the pinions and wheels for impacted dirt and remove if found. Check also the pivot holes for wear oval and not round. The pivot should move in the hole but only a tiny amount of what is called side shake. Any pivot holes with excessive shake will need re bushing but as it’s a modern clock it should be ok.

If every thing checks out you can relubricate the movementpivot holes  sparingly, for this I would recommend Windles Clock oil it is the best but any light machine oil will suffice. Once done re fit the springs and the plate. Now check the escape wheel and pallet for wear or bent teeth. If that checks out ok mount the clock in th jig and give each spring three or four turns replace pendulum and start the clock. Listen for the even tick. Tock and move the movement in the vice up or down at the side to achieve it.  If it runs ok for 24 hrs turn your attention to the front plate and lubricate all the pivot points and pivot holes again sparingly. A further 24 hr run and if successful re case and check for time.  That’s enough for now. Come back when it’s cased up or before if you are not sure of anything or require any more help.       All the best

[Kalanag]

Example of a home made let down tool using a slotted piece of aluminum tube:

[oldhippy]

Doesn't look dirty. If I were you I would oil it use Windles Clock Oil it is not expensive. Oil all the oil sink holes, ad a drop of oil on the posts that hold levers, the escape wheel teeth and the pallets. Se how it goes. 

[mbwatch]

16 hours ago, Kalanag said:

Example of a home made let down tool using a slotted piece of aluminum tube:

 

@Kalanag I took a much more low-fidelity approach with parts on hand:

 

[mbwatch]

I was on a tight time crunch for this due to an out of town visit. I did end up flushing out pivots with naphtha, removing a lot of gunk, pegging a lot of detritus out of pinion leaves, reoiling with a generic light clock oil I had on hand. It has been running on time for 48 hours cased now and tomorrow I have to send it back home with the out of town guest who brought it to me. When its owners receive it, they'll have a timekeeping, correctly chiming clock that answers their question "can this clock still run?".

It will need a more complete strip down and service by someone more qualified than me within a couple of years. I can't evaluate whether it needs any new bushes. Thanks for everyone who offered advice.