Repivoting

[Neverenoughwatches]

Hey watch people , how we all doing ? Looking forward to the coming year ? I just wanted to verify a repair technique that i wanted to try. I'm looking to repivot a worn third wheel, but instead of grinding back and putting in a plug to reshape, i wondered if i could cut in another pivot and pull up the jewel hole to retain the endshake. Its not something I've heard mention being tried. I could add a photo of the wheel but its only a general question, some of the pivot is left its just short and there is space left on the plate to bring the jewel in. Feels like a reasonable solution to me, I've thought through the what ifs but cant see a reason not to do it.

[nickelsilver]

It can work, but you will end up with a shorter than normal pivot, and you may not have enough movement of the jewels (you will almost certainly have to move both) for clearances for the new position of the wheel. If you have a lathe capable of holding the wheel to cut a new pivot, it's not much more work to drill it and insert a new pivot. Eternal Tools sell individual carbide drills, though it's worth learning to make simple spade drills as they are more forgiving if they break during drilling- easier to remove the broken drill.

[JohnR725]

oftentimes nifty new techniques that we don't normally hear about there's a reason. like whatever your re-pivoting will now be considerably shorter. Moving the jewels that much shorter probably be a challenge. Although it may depend upon the particular watch some watches you might be able to get away with it but.

6 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

drill it and insert a new pivot

as you're dealing with a wheel not a balance staff I would agree just need a hole and new pivot. versus what you're suggesting that I quoted below you don't need to put an entire plug-in and reshape you just need a pivot. Of course the key to all of this is you need the hole in the location for the old pivot was and not somewhere else..

 

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

but instead of grinding back and putting in a plug to reshape

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

21 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

It can work, but you will end up with a shorter than normal pivot, and you may not have enough movement of the jewels (you will almost certainly have to move both) for clearances for the new position of the wheel. If you have a lathe capable of holding the wheel to cut a new pivot, it's not much more work to drill it and insert a new pivot. Eternal Tools sell individual carbide drills, though it's worth learning to make simple spade drills as they are more forgiving if they break during drilling- easier to remove the broken drill.

Thanks Nickelsilver, i thought extending the pivot thats left might be a safer option for me instead of putting a plug in.  I have plenty of nos spade pivot drills but these have struggled to drill holes in hardened steel, so i expect breakages in the wheel arbor. And the cheap bought fluted carbide drills o have are so brittle, the shafts i could make round gravers from and possibly pivot drills. Some practice comes first. Thanks for the reply , i just wanted to know if it was a feasible idea under certain circumstances.

39 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

oftentimes nifty new techniques that we don't normally hear about there's a reason. like whatever your re-pivoting will now be considerably shorter.

Thanks John,  it was just an idea that i thought might save me trying to drill the arbor. I still think its doable, the top pivot is short so not completely broken off and there is some space left on the plate to push the top jewel in. 

[oldhippy]

You will need to make sure you have end shake, also it will still work in the train. Its not the sort of thing I would recommend but if there is no alternative such as not have the tools to re pivot. I look forward to seeing how it works out a nice photo would be nice. Good luck.      

[Neverenoughwatches]

33 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

You will need to make sure you have end shake, also it will still work in the train. Its not the sort of thing I would recommend but if there is no alternative such as not have the tools to re pivot. I look forward to seeing how it works out a nice photo would be nice. Good luck.      

Thank OH, i may have the problem of too much endshake. I was about to post a few pictures to get more feedback if it will work or not. Lathework is still very new to me  especially this small, i want some practice first besides. I dont want to mess up the piece as the movement is good make,  a Buser and has some unusual design features, a vibraflex balance and the banking is built into the lever. Photo to follow after lunch .

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thank OH, i may have the problem of too much endshake. I was about to post a few pictures to get more feedback if it will work or not. Lathework is still very new to me  especially this small, i want some practice first besides. I dont want to mess up the piece as the movement is good make,  a Buser and has some unusual design features, a vibraflex balance and the banking is built into the lever. Photo to follow after lunch .

 

Looking at the pivot now under much better magnification, what i was seeing  is oil on the pivot. One good reason not to do watch repair at 3 am. I just have to work out now why it keeps stopping, kind of disappointed i was looking forward to using my lathe as well.  

[JohnR725]

12 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thanks John,  it was just an idea that i thought might save me trying to drill the arbor. I still think its doable, the top pivot is short so not completely broken off and there is some space left on the plate to push the top jewel in. 

when the problem is when people asked questions on the message board in order to really get a proper answer you should give us pictures otherwise we will give you generic answers not necessarily helpful for your particular situation

so if you still have some of the pivot left yes you could shorten a little bit providing you can actually move the jewels. Sometimes the jewels are flush with the plate and you can't move them in any farther they will fall out other times there recessed and they have a lot of room to move around. All things that conceivably would change our answer.

Now as I migrate up the messages I see your picture and what exactly is wrong with that pivot now? In other words it looks like you have quite a bit of the pivot left so much so that did you just move the jewel now? I thought we were talking about no pivot or very tiny pivot but that's quite a bit of pivot left?

12 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

have struggled to drill holes in hardened steel,

often times you have to soften the steel. It also be very careful with drills not to burnish the hole you're trying to drill as it will make it basically impossible to drill.

12 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

fluted carbide drills o have are so brittle

typically all carbide drills are bristle. The general rule is if you drop one on the floor there's no point in picking it up basically cause it's going to be broke. Carbide drills work really well if you do not twist or bend them. As long as they're running at the right speed and they go straight into the work they do a beautiful job.

12 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

shafts i could make round gravers from

actually that's something my father used to do depending upon the carbide drill some of them only have the carbide drill part others basically the whole thing is carbide. So he would silver solder that into something and grind it and make it into a cutting tool for the lathe. Oh and just to clarify not a watchmaker's lathe but a machinists lathe

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Now as I migrate up the messages I see your picture and what exactly is wrong with that pivot now? In other words it looks like you have quite a bit of the pivot left so much so that did you just move the jewel now? I thought we were talking about no pivot or very tiny pivot but that's quite a bit of pivot left?

Thank you for all the replies John. A little embarrassment on my part but the pivot was actually fine, i added an update after my original post. Working at 3am is not a good idea for watchrepair, tired brain and tired eyes. Later that day fresh eyes saw a different scene and a dab with pithwood revealed a perfect pivot. A little jewel jiggling was still required to improve the endshake but the train runs well now. Still all the ideas suggested will be relevant at some point, all good knowledge gained is useful one day.