Pallet Fork

[Nobby]

Hello All

I would like some help with pallet fork stones ie: entry & exit

I  have a 18s Elgin straight fork missing a stone and would like to know

which is the entry and which is the exit. The stones that are in the fork

are long with no rear adjustment I am having a right time trying to get the

escape to fork engagement any suggestions would be helpful.

Where best to buy stones , have looked at Cousins but some sizes are now obsolete

photo of fork included. Thanks in advance.

[nevenbekriev]

You are missing the entry pallet - the one with smaller slope of the impulse surface. I will be able to write more few hours later, now I am at work...

[nevenbekriev]

The escape wheel is very easy to get damaget with only one pallet on the lever. It is made of brass, am I correct? Is it not damaged? Can we see  good picture of it?

It is possible to narrow and shorten  a bigger pallet stone in order to make it suitable for this lever, so it is not so much needed to find the exact size. The slope of the impulse plane can be corrected too, so just a bigger pallet is needed. For example - from some clock platform escapement. For narrowing the pallet stone, diamod disk with 800 -1000 grit will be needed. It is done by hand - just the disk, the pallet stone and one finger of You hand needed.

Do You have depthing tool? For this type of movements, where the balance is on top of the upper plate and the escapement is not wisible, it will be much easier to do the pallets adjustment in a depthing tool.

Edited October 27, 2023 by nevenbekriev

[Nobby]

the escape wheel is not damaged thankfully , and no i do not have a depth gauge i have bought a few pallet forks and matching escape wheels hoping they would work

but I then run into pivot size problems oversize ! , the diamond wheel could be an option to remove a small amount from the back of stone making it shorter.

[Neverenoughwatches]

25 minutes ago, Nobby said:

the escape wheel is not damaged thankfully , and no i do not have a depth gauge i have bought a few pallet forks and matching escape wheels hoping they would work

but I then run into pivot size problems oversize ! , the diamond wheel could be an option to remove a small amount from the back of stone making it shorter.

Hey nobby, this is the tool Nev is taking about. Perhaps he will show how he uses it to set the stone depth.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[nevenbekriev]

Yes, this is the tool.

I can judge only by the lever shape, but I am pretty sure that the movement has this kind of design like on the picture.

I am not sure if the parts of this are replacible. For sure, the parts of english watches with same design are not replacible and no point to search for donor parts as they don't fit. Well, this is american watch and may be they are unified in some degree, but I have not tried - I usually don't use donor parts. You say the pivot sizes are different, but much more important are the distancess between bearings centers (esc. wheel - lever) and (lever - balance). They must be the same in donor as in Your movement. The hight of the pinions of the wheels and the lever staffs, the pinions diameter ant tooth count, the position in hight of the tables of the wheels, the size of rollers on the balances, the impulse stone sizes and distances from the balance staffs... All this must be same in both movements.

As You see, the most secure way is to restore the original lever. And this is not so hard to do.

How to use the depthing tool? Supposed there is a new pallet in the lever, but it needs to be adjusted. Supposed the other pallet is in it's correct place. You have to acuratelly adjust the tool to the distance between the holes of the lever and esc. wheel. Then, not to touch adjustment screw any more. Put the wheel and the lever between centers of the tool and check the action of the couple as in this video. In the video I change the distance, but here we will keep the distance unchanged and will move in or out оnly the pallet that needs to be adjusted.  If the couple doesn't lock in some of the lever movement directions, we must move the pallet towards the wheel. If it locks in the very begining of the check, the stone must be moved from the weel  untill the couple starts not to lock, then a little back to the point where locking begins to happen and then just  a little bit more to ensure the locking is reliable. Then shellack to be aplied and the action to be checked in the movement.

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by nevenbekriev

[HectorLooi]

I was initially so excited by this method of setting the pallet jewels that I went on eBay and almost bought a depthing tool. But a little voice inside my head told me to hold on.

From reading the earlier post about banking pins, I realized that the position of the banking pins are not transfered to the depthing tool. Hence the depth of the locks cannot be set accurately using this method.

Perhaps @JohnR725 can review the method and weigh in on the matter.

Edited October 28, 2023 by HectorLooi
Typo

[JohnR725]

22 hours ago, Nobby said:

18s Elgin

I don't suppose we can have the serial number as Elgin made quite a few 18 size watches

13 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

From reading the earlier post about banking pins, I realized that the position of the banking pins are not transfered to the depthing tool. Hence the depth of the locks cannot be set accurately using this method.

yes that's what I would think but in a previous discussions somebody indicated that banking pins have no importance at all at setting depth. That would mean that the tool shown above could be used to set the jewels for which I look forward to seeing how well that really works without the banking pins.

 

[nickelsilver]

If I'm making a fork from scratch it's extremely handy to use a depthing tool to set the drop lock. In particular on high grade swiss stuff the fork often is in a channel machined into the mainplate, with banking happening on the base of the fork end near the horns at the end of this channel. Once drop lock is good, the banking area of the fork is filed until the fork can hit drop lock plus some slide (run to the banking) which is total lock.

 

After all that the horns are filed for clearance, and finally the guard pin fitted.

 

It would be really hard to do without a depthing tool. A good depthing tool.

Edited October 28, 2023 by nickelsilver

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I was initially so excited by this method of setting the pallet jewels that I went on eBay and almost bought a depthing tool. But a little voice inside my head told me to hold on.

From reading the earlier post about banking pins, I realized that the position of the banking pins are not transfered to the depthing tool. Hence the depth of the locks cannot be set accurately using this method.

Perhaps @JohnR725 can review the method and weigh in on the matter.

I kind of figured the same Hector, the locking is dictated by the escape wheel only with no involvement of the banking pins to limit the lever travel. I am happy to be proved wrong though. 

[JohnR725]

5 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

with no involvement of the banking pins

that's why the new recommended procedure is to unscrew those pesky banking pins and toss them in the trash as they're not needed at all. as all they bring his misery because they're in the wrong place getting rid of them is a good thing I only wish I'd known this sooner.

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

that's why the new recommended procedure is to unscrew those pesky banking pins and toss them in the trash as they're not needed at all. as all they bring his misery because they're in the wrong place getting rid of them is a good thing I only wish I'd known this sooner.

Do i detect a hint of sarcasm John ?  

[HectorLooi]

11 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

that's why the new recommended procedure is to unscrew those pesky banking pins and toss them in the trash as they're not needed at all. as all they bring his misery because they're in the wrong place getting rid of them is a good thing I only wish I'd known this sooner.

Ok. I'll go get a depthing tool and will do that to all my watches.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

If I'm making a fork from scratch it's extremely handy to use a depthing tool to set the drop lock. In particular on high grade swiss stuff the fork often is in a channel machined into the mainplate, with banking happening on the base of the fork end near the horns at the end of this channel. Once drop lock is good, the banking area of the fork is filed until the fork can hit drop lock plus some slide (run to the banking) which is total lock.

 

After all that the horns are filed for clearance, and finally the guard pin fitted.

 

It would be really hard to do without a depthing tool. A good depthing tool.

Hi Nicklesilver, this all sounds like reverse of doing the clearance checks before adjusting a pallet stone ? Which also makes sense if you are starting with nothing.

7 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Ok. I'll go get a depthing tool and will do that to all my watches.

Even more sarcasm, someone always has to go one better

26 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

that's why the new recommended procedure is to unscrew those pesky banking pins and toss them in the trash as they're not needed at all. as all they bring his misery because they're in the wrong place getting rid of them is a good thing I only wish I'd known this sooner.

Who has one of those big escapement models to easily illustrate what happens when things are moved around. Anyone ?

[JohnR725]

49 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Who has one of those big escapement models to easily illustrate what happens when things are moved around. Anyone ?

I was always hoping that somebody would just come up with 3-D printed version. Because trying to purchase one of those off of eBay there always dreadfully expensive.

But in the absence of one get an American pocket watch with movable banking pins and start moving them around and see what happens.

then just in case you're curious about how much movement the banking pins can do here is an example from Elgin

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

I was always hoping that somebody would just come up with 3-D printed version. Because trying to purchase one of those off of eBay there always dreadfully expensive.

But in the absence of one get an American pocket watch with movable banking pins and start moving them around and see what happens.

then just in case you're curious about how much movement the banking pins can do here is an example from Elgin

 

Good diagram John, i was looking at one very similar the other day explaining that the total lock which is often referred to as should be one third or one fifth of the impulse face, is between 1 1/2  to 2 degrees of an arc taken from the point of the lever pivot, shown here as the lock and slide. We can clearly see here that moving the left banking pin outwards causes lever action to increase and the left pallet stone to drop further down the heal of the tooth increasing total lock but it also alters the angle at which it touches, whereas pushing the stone outwards from its slot maintains the same angle. So thinking about that would increasing the lock by moving the banking pin create a harder lock due to the shallower angle of the locking face on the tooth ( reducing the draft angle ) ? Actually i changed my mind i think the lock would be softer because the tooth is climbing a less steep angle. Obviously I'm just focusing on that side and ignoring for now what is happening with the exit stone and at the balance. Thoughts please John , I'm in a picking your brain mood today

Edited October 28, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches
Re-think

[nevenbekriev]

Guys, I have never claimed that banking pins are not important and further more – to get rid of them. This is a nonsense.

Please, try to read this instruction for pallets depth adjustment, which I pointed, and have written it back in 2012. The first thing I say to start with there is ‘Straighten the banking pins!’. As this is written for a movement made in 70’s, which means modern one, straightening the pins means ‘Bring them to their right position!’ And, this is because in the pallets adjustment I have used the banking position as reference for the pallets position. Made this way, the adjustment in the end is correct, but this is right ONLY if all is originally made or suitable for this movement. If, for example, the pallets has less sloped impulse planes, the locking will be too deep, and if planes are more sloped, no locking will happen at all. This kind of adjustment is the one that has to be made if the things are totally messed, or if no pallets at all in the lever and everything must be done from the beginning to the end. And there beginning means banking position, and end means receiving correct locking in the end.

But, if we don’t need to go all the way from beginning to the end, and see clearly that just a correction is needed, and it is clear what this correction has to be, it is naturally to do the correction, and check the result, but not to start from the very beginning of the process, as it is no needed.

I will claim again here, that locking is different thing and is not the same as total lock, and the locking happens without participation of the banking pins. And no matter what one will do with the pins, if locking was bad or not enough, it will not change. Of course, if the pins are in wrong position, they must be adjusted. But if the pallets position is correct, wider pins than needed will only result as little lower amplitude, and narrowed pins just slightly than needed will result in rubbing of imp. stone in horns or guard pin in roller or just stop of a tooth of the esc. wheel on the very edge on the end of the imp. plane of the pallet

[nickelsilver]

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hi Nicklesilver, this all sounds like reverse of doing the clearance checks before adjusting a pallet stone ? Which also makes sense if you are starting with nothing.

 

If I'm checking a watch escapement, I would normally check the horn clearance and make sure there is safe lock. Then guard pin clearance which should be smaller. Then drop lock, which should lock, then total lock (banked).

If there is excessive total lock, but the run to the banking is large, then drop lock is (generally) small, but run to the banking large, so I close the bankings.

 

If there is excessive total lock, and drop lock is large, run to the banking minimal, I would move the stone(s) as long as there is enough safety with the horn clearance.

 

At a certain point you may find that you still have excessive drop lock but can't move the stones in any further as horn clearance is too large. This is either a design or manufacturing defect, or someone filed the horns at some point.

 

Bottom line is drop lock is independent of the banking pins, and can be observed using a depthing tool- which while useful when making a fork is also useful when working on full plate watches. Once you have decent drop lock, horn and guard pin clearance can be (painfully) checked in the watch, and eccentric bankings can be closed so that they can be opened to "bank to drop" (this is found in older texts, opening the banking until drop lock occurs), then open a tiny bit more to permit slide and total lock.

 

Even with the lovely Hardinge tool which effectively converts a mainplate into a 3-way depthing tool, setting drop lock is a pain on full plate watches with the fork and balance on the full upper bridge. And drop lock really is the base.

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

will claim again here, that locking is different thing and is not the same as total lock, and the locking happens without participation of the banking pins. And no matter what one will do with the pins, if locking was bad or not enough, it will not change. Of course, if the pins are in wrong position, they must be adjusted. But if the pallets position is correct, wider pins than needed will only result as little lower amplitude, and narrowed pins just slightly than needed will result in rubbing of imp. stone in horns or guard pin in roller or just stop of a tooth of the esc. wheel on the very edge on the end of the imp. plane of the pallet

Ah ok, some things I've read call the  lock as total lock, total lock is the lock and the draw.

24 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Even with the lovely Hardinge tool which effectively converts a mainplate into a 3-way depthing tool, setting drop lock is a pain on full plate watches with the fork and balance on the full upper bridge. And drop lock really is the base.

I think I've seen those, a movement holder with 3 adjustable vertical posts and  pins.

[nevenbekriev]

9 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I was initially so excited by this method of setting the pallet jewels that I went on eBay and almost bought a depthing tool. But a little voice inside my head told me to hold on.

From reading the earlier post about banking pins, I realized that the position of the banking pins are not transfered to the depthing tool. Hence the depth of the locks cannot be set accurately using this method.

Perhaps @JohnR725 can review the method and weigh in on the matter.

Hi Hector,

Actually, the depthing tool is not a tool for escapements adjustment. It is an useful tool that You are going to use when someone brings to You  a box full of all the wheels and parts from a watch or clock but without plates and asks You to build a watch or clock out of this parts. It will help You to position the wheels between the new plates at the right distance from each other in such manner that they will be geared(?) correctly.

Here I offered it’s use as in such movements as OP’s it is not possible to observe and operate the escapement from above, but only from aside, and this makes work with the escapement much inconvenient. I didn’t say impossible without it, and using of the tool is not unavoidable. It just would make life easier.

In modern style movements, where lever has separate bridge and everything is seen from above, such toll is not needed for escapement adjustment.

Further more, the method I offered is apliable only if one of the pallets in it's correct place, as the metthod uses the position of this pallet as reference for the other pallet positioning.  If initial position of the first pallet is wrong, the method will be still apliable, but then corrections of the both pallets will be needed in a manner that one of them will go in antd the other out in order to make the lever's tail decline symetrically as much to one side as to the other. I would advice to open the banking pins when adjusting pallets positions and when adjustment is done, to correct the pins position as to ensure the needed minimal clearences and that movements 'run to the banking' are greater than zero.

[nickelsilver]

Further to Neven's post, setting drop lock "blind" doesn't take too much into account the position of the actual fork. Like he says, assuming one jewel is correct.

 

The pallet fork is also referred to as the anchor; the anchor shape is where the pallet stones are, the fork itself is what works with the roller jewel. In the event of a bent fork, or balance center off center (was the case in the last fork I made), things get wonky. And if you thought adjusting pallet stones/bankings was a source of skullsweat already, these situations make things really fun.

 

If everything is original, one stone is missing for example, you can proceed assuming the remaining stone is at least close to where it should be. Also, in good grade watches, the gap at the back of the fork slot is generally more or less the same for both jewels. This is a ballpark view.

 

You get your extensive Seitz set out and whoa, the only jewel that fits is either way too long or so short you have a massive gap at the back of the slot. You either live with a big gap, or reduce the length o

f the new jewel. It gets quite complex.

 

But, imagine the entry jewel is too far out, but you checked with a depthing tool and got the exit positioned well, BUT the "neutral" point of the fork now favors one or the other sides of the bankings. Using the checks in this thread you can get things back where they need to be. Or find a Hardinge escapement matching tool for 3 or 4 hundred bucks and use it once every 5 years, haha.

[HectorLooi]

Hi @nevenbekriev, in your article on setting pallet depth in The watch Forum, you mentioned Slava alarm clock as a good example to study the escapement due to its size. May I know what model is recommended? Would the model in the picture below be suitable? 

By the way, I love Soviet clocks. Like my Agat table clock and my submarine clock.

[nevenbekriev]

Hi Hector, The one in the first photo is the one. No mater of the model outside, they have the same movenetnt (11 jewels) with sometime different names on the dial as МИР, ДРУЖБА. The second one, АГАТ  is different, it is based on the old Hampden 42mm pocket watch movement that russians bought the factory back in 1933 and started production of КИРОВСКИЕ 1МЧЗ.

I used Slava movement in the article as there is (stil) many of them here (Eastern Europe) and You can get one on a carboot sales for less than 50 cents, and of course, the size and design of the movement are perfrct for educational purpose

[JohnR725]

14 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

The first thing I say to start with there is ‘Straighten the banking pins!’. As this is written for a movement made in 70’s, which means modern one, straightening the pins means ‘Bring them to their right position!’

seems simple enough except?

On 10/27/2023 at 12:59 AM, Nobby said:

18s Elgin

in addition to checking for a bent banking pins you also have to pay attention to the movable banking pins standard on almost all American pocket watches. So is not enough to visually look at them they look right you actually have to check that aspect.

13 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

If I'm checking a watch escapement, I would normally check the horn clearance and make sure there is safe lock. Then guard pin clearance which should be smaller. Then drop lock, which should lock, then total lock (banked).

If there is excessive total lock, but the run to the banking is large, then drop lock is (generally) small, but run to the banking large, so I close the bankings.

notice how all the books on escapement's all the writings slightly different terms slightly different well just lots of variations.

basically more or less like the quoted above check the horn clearance. Then the guard pin and then I leave my banking pins alone. Then I can look at the pallet stones fortunately unlike the banking pins which are to easy to adjust usually nobody plays with the stones. Just like usually they never play with the guard pin but anything that's a screw that's adjustable like the banking pins the mean time screws those get played with. Sometimes the point where there were physically loose because they been adjusted so many times.

 

16 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

i was looking at one very similar the other day explaining that the total lock which is often referred to as should be one third or one fifth of the impulse face, is between 1 1/2  to 2 degrees of an arc taken from the point of the lever pivot, shown here as the lock and slide.

one of the problems with reference material on the lever escapement is the assumption that every single lever escapement was manufactured the exact same specifications. The problem is the lever escapement has evolved over time with the modern lever escapement obviously be more efficient than a vintage lever escapement. So you going to find the variation and the rules are not necessarily written in stone.

[CYCLOPS]

that tool is the meshing of wheel teeth and pinion teeth, not pallet stones, just get a donor movement/junker and you will be better off, they do make a tool for pallet stones thought....