Where do I start with this guys and girls...newbie needs some advice please!

[dazzystar]

Hi All,

I managed to snag a very cheap pocket watch movement (see pic attached). it has no case or winder and although appears to be intact has obviously suffered water damage. Anyway, where should I start with the resoration process. I have no clue how to even take the dial off or what I need to wind it so as much help as possible in baby steps would be really appreciated!

Cheers everyone
Daz

[RichardHarris123]

I suggest that you watch a few videos on pocket watch repair.  We will help you as much as possible though.  To remove the dial, look for screws in the side of the movement.  I can't see a hairspring, it may of corroded away.  I'm not sure the movement can be rescued but you can still practise disassembly and reassembly. 

[dazzystar]

That was my thoughts too. What's good for removing rust?

[RichardHarris123]

That's a difficult question, you will get many different opinions. Look for something gentle, it will work slowly but limit more damage.  Have you found the dial screws?

[JohnR725]

13 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I can't see a hairspring

Yes I noticed that invisible hairspring?

 

14 hours ago, dazzystar said:

winder

It's an American pocket watch it's there it just isn't like a Swiss watch.

13 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I'm not sure the movement can be rescued but you can still practise disassembly and reassembly

Yes the rust looks extensive ill be interesting to see what it looks like under the dial.

Maybe you should start with reading exercise like a book you can download it in a variety of formats

https://archive.org/details/TM9-1575

Providing I got the serial number right this should Be your movement looks like it's a 16 size for some reason the picture looks smaller? Oh and regarding the picture you want to remove the dust ring because when the dust ring is in place you cannot get to the dial screws.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/elgin/14501378

Then be careful with the crown wheel screw it's probably Left-hand thread. Typically are but not always.

 

 

[Nucejoe]

What condition is the dial in?   If beyond hope, drop the whole thing in CocaCoal, in 48hrs you find all screws can be removed with ease.

Your likely to break some screws, if you were to start without a good soak.

Hairsprings should not be soaked in CocaCola.

 

[Juleswatch]

Like the Coca Cola idea never done that before

[AlecMac]

As said above, there's a wealth of videos on Youtube, but watch a good few as not all videos show all the important points. 

To avoid what I did on my first movement...Let the power down before taking apart anything. Use a screwdriver in the ratchet wheel screw to controll the speed- the larger wheel of the 2 in the bottom of your pic. 

 

 

[JohnR725]

54 minutes ago, AlecMac said:

To avoid what I did on my first movement...Let the power down before taking apart anything. Use a screwdriver in the ratchet wheel screw to controll the speed- the larger wheel of the 2 in the bottom of your pic. 

While the work on wristwatches it can become problematic on pocket watches as there's way more power on the mainspring. A better approach would be to use of bench key inserted into the side of the watch. American pocket watches out of the case typically require a set of bench keys rather expensive if you can find one on eBay or technically the set of three. In a case you insert your bench key wind just a tiny bit to release the quick and hold the click back and gently let the bench key spin in your hand.

But yes it's definitely good to let the power off to avoid unpleasant things as you found it.

Then the give you a clue what bench key is look like as they could easily appear in a box of miscellaneous tools as people might not know what they are. Typically of a set of three which would correspond all the sizes of an American pocket watch

Here's a page of vintage catalog including the other universal keys for key wind watches where you can push the button on and an open up and go over a square

Unfortunately the above prices are no longer in effect and if anyone knows what the bench keys are on eBay well if anyone knows what a the tools on eBay they tend up the price by quite a bit

Then if you're going to Elgin watchmaking college they had a lathe project

 

 

 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, AlecMac said:

As said above, there's a wealth of videos on Youtube, but watch a good few as not all videos show all the important points. 

To avoid what I did on my first movement...Let the power down before taking apart anything. Use a screwdriver in the ratchet wheel screw to controll the speed- the larger wheel of the 2 in the bottom of your pic. 

 

 

Make sure your driver is a really good fit on the screw. I've had a driver slip more than once on a fully tensioned movement,  its not a good outcome. I make a point now of using the crown between my fingers or a crown winder to power down. 

[dazzystar]

As there's so much surface rust, what should I 'spray' or 'wipe' on the surface to help loosen things before I try and undo screws, etc?

I saw the post above about dust cover but not certain if this watch has them. Going to hopefully get a chance to look into it in more detail once my 'starter kit' of tools and things arrive next week!

[RichardHarris123]

Post a photo of the dial side.   @Nucejoe swears on coca cola, I would follow his advice. 

[JohnR725]

11 minutes ago, dazzystar said:

As there's so much surface rust, what should I 'spray' or 'wipe' on the surface to help loosen things before I try and undo screws, etc?

Why don't you just try to disassemble and see how bad it is. Maybe it will, parts without having to do anything.

11 minutes ago, dazzystar said:

I saw the post above about dust cover but not certain if this watch has them

It would be nice if we had better pictures like a side view would be really nice. The side view would answer the question but in the absence of a side view I circled something in your image normally in the movement you wouldn't have anything there  I'm just assuming that's the dust ring. So if the dust ring is in place you Will not be able to access the dial screws. As typically the ring would cover them up. Then we still ideally need a picture because the dust ring isn't always a ring. Basically we need a side view of the watch.

 

[oldhippy]

I'm not being rude here. Because it is in such a mess such as the hairspring missing its full of rust and the train is not jeweled so there is every chance some of the pivots could be rusted in the pivot holes. I would ditch it and look for something better. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

I'm not being rude here. Because it is in such a mess such as the hairspring missing its full of rust and the train is not jeweled so there is every chance some of the pivots could be rusted in the pivot holes. I would ditch it and look for something better. 

When I was in my first school learning watch repair the instructor at all sorts of interesting sayings and things he would say. Like is the glass half full or is the glass half empty. He would point out that students or in this case newbies on the message board always look at the watch as it can be repaired it can be restored. Or basically is this a watch that can be restored is this a full glass or is this half a glass of parts for a future project or for some other repair.

The unfortunate reality especially with vintage like this is not everything can be repaired and restored.

So if you accept that this is a fun project to learn techniques on and you don't care that it's never going to run and it is never to run probably then continue otherwise find a project that's going to be more rewarding. Yes all of us find it rewarding when the watch springs to life and preferably keeps running for more than a few minutes.

 

 

[RichardHarris123]

I agree with both of you, @oldhippyand @JohnR725. How can I agree with both of you, it is a lost cause to get it running again but I still think it's worth practicing on. Why, because like countless others, I pinged thing's all over the place, lack of technique and poor tools. If screws etc are pinged, it doesn't matter, if screws etc are broken due to rust, it's a  learning experience.  Of course the next step is to buy something fixable or running in the first place to practice on. I have learnt so much being on here but I'm still an amateur with so much to learn. 

[oldhippy]

I always advise those just starting out to practice on pocket watch movements because they are the same as a bog standard watch movement only bigger. But this movement is really pushing the boat out.   Our friend could learn a lot more with a better movement, this thing doesn't have a hairspring so he has no chance of removing it from the balance cock and putting it back, which is a very important thing in watch making.