What you on with today ?

[Neverenoughwatches]

Just about to have my first real go at vibrating a hairspring. The watch is running 5 mins a day slow, possible someone has put a new hs in and is incorrect. The watch is 70 odd years old. The amplitude isnt too bad at 220 in dial up and down, everything is clean, train is relatively smooth, good snapping back and forth of the lever and balance oscillates for a very good 2 minutes by itself after a kick start from the puffer.  Not enough room on the timing regulator to bring it up , all ready at full fast just before the pins drop off the end curve. So i figured i would check the timing of the balance before looking at anything else. It will at least rule out a timing issue. 

[JohnR725]

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Just about to have my first real go at vibrating a hairspring. The watch is running 5 mins a day slow,

I'm confused here? Your vibrating  existing hairspring that's five minutes slow why exactly are you doing that?

 

[rehajm]

24 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I'm confused here? Your vibrating  existing hairspring that's five minutes slow why exactly are you doing that?

 

Your reason for your inquiry is not obvious to me who is interested but inexperienced in this realm. If he has no more room to move the regulator and has to move and re-pin the stud wouldn't the vibrating tool be a good exercise to determine a proper stud point?

Edited July 29, 2023 by rehajm

[Neverenoughwatches]

22 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I'm confused here? Your vibrating  existing hairspring that's five minutes slow why exactly are you doing that?

 

Hiya John. The watch is running around 400 seconds a day slow, there is no room left on the end curve to increase the timing. The vibrating exercise was just to see how well the hairspring is matched to the balance wheel so that i can rule out a mismatch and really as an excuse to try the vibrating tool in a real way. 

[Galilea]

2 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hiya John. The watch is running around 400 seconds a day slow, there is no room left on the end curve to increase the timing. The vibrating exercise was just to see how well the hairspring is matched to the balance wheel so that i can rule out a mismatch and really as an excuse to try the vibrating tool in a real way. 

Yes, neverenoughwatches. Ask John, he'll know.

Also, your name is quite long, and as many times a day as I have to type it, could it just be, maybe, N.E.W.B? We could even leave out the punctuation, so just Newb. Stands for never enough watches Brit. Or could be Newbie, never enough watches Brit in England. Just a suggestion.

[JohnR725]

11 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The watch is running around 400 seconds a day slow,

Timing machine will normally do up the 999 seconds so 400 seconds put you in the range of the timing machine. It's when you get out of the range that's where things get interesting but that's where better timing machine would be needed.

Then I assume that everything is correct on the watch and the timing machine image looks right. In other words not a snow globe affect?

 

13 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

vibrating exercise was just to see how well the hairspring is matched to the balance wheel so that i can rule out a mismatch and really as an excuse to try the vibrating tool in a real way.

Oh and by the way I really like the way you're stretching your hairspring. Okay so first time out with a vibrating tool? You do know the procedure of how long the balance wheel has to match to be close enough do you?

18 minutes ago, rehajm said:

Your reason for your inquiry is not obvious to me who is interested but inexperienced in this realm. If he has no more room to move the regulator and has to move and re-pin the stud wouldn't the vibrating tool be a good exercise to determine a proper stud point?

First off most people don't have hairspring vibrating tools. Typically well to be honest I've never seen anyone doing what he's doing now. Normally vibrating tools used to vibrate brand-new hairsprings. I don't think I've ever seen someone use it to verify the hairspring is indeed running right when it can be verified with their timing machine?

Then technically the vibrating tools tells you the point where the regulator would go not the location of the stud unless this is a free sprung balance wheel? Typically when you're vibrating you leave an extra turn of the spring cutting it exactly at the vibrating point then you can form your terminal curve. So providing nothing else is going on and it's purely the wrong hairspring which is not impossible but just doubtful

56 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The watch is 70 odd years old.

Brand of watch name caliber etc.?

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

30 minutes ago, Galilea said:

Yes, neverenoughwatches. Ask John, he'll know.

Also, your name is quite long, and as many times a day as I have to type it, could it just be, maybe, N.E.W.B? We could even leave out the punctuation, so just Newb. Stands for never enough watches Brit. Or could be Newbie, never enough watches Brit in England. Just a suggestion.

WW just calls he NEW . You can either Use the shorthand of Godfrey or  Rich is just fine.

[rehajm]

So then proper procedure is what? Optical Regression of an appropriate stud point (i.e. That looks good as any1)

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Then I assume that everything is correct on the watch and the timing machine image looks right. In other words not a snow globe affect?

It wasn't too bad john, a little difficult to fully ascertain as the timing is some way out. I will also add that this is a pin pallet movement.

19 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Oh and by the way I really like the way you're stretching your hairspring. Okay so first time out with a vibrating tool? You do know the procedure of how long the balance wheel has to match to be close enough do

The hairspring is very weak john ( maybe fatigued and why it is running slow ) this is the only way the balance wheel can remain upright.

[Galilea]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Just about to have my first real go at vibrating a hairspring. The watch is running 5 mins a day slow, possible someone has put a new hs in and is incorrect. The watch is 70 odd years old. The amplitude isnt too bad at 220 in dial up and down, everything is clean, train is relatively smooth, good snapping back and forth of the lever and balance oscillates for a very good 2 minutes by itself after a kick start from the puffer.  Not enough room on the timing regulator to bring it up , all ready at full fast just before the pins drop off the end curve. So i figured i would check the timing of the balance before looking at anything else. It will at least rule out a timing issue. 

(trying to crowd out earlier comments from feed on right) Neverenough, that is seriously impressive that you have learned this, and in all reality something I doubt I will ever learn. I did think one could ... why do you want to vibrate the hairspring in the first place? Thanks.

[Neverenoughwatches]

24 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

You do know the procedure of how long the balance wheel has to match to be close enough do you?

54 minutes ago, rehajm said:

I was hoping to achieve from the start of timing until one of them stopped oscillating. The master balance stops ater 1 1/2 minutes 

31 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

First off most people don't have hairspring vibrating tools. Typically well to be honest I've never seen anyone doing what he's doing now. 

Aw thanks John, are you saying I'm unique

34 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I don't think I've ever seen someone use it to verify the hairspring is indeed running right when it can be verified with their timing machine?

Then technically the vibrating tools tells you the point where the regulator would go not the location of the stud unless this is a free sprung balance wheel? Typically when you're vibrating you leave an extra turn of the spring cutting it exactly at the vibrating point then you can form your terminal curve. So providing nothing else is going on and it's purely the wrong hairspring which is not impossible but just doubtful

It was more a case of ruling out the situation of a non match. The hairspring has quite a low number of coils and seems very weak for the weight balance wheel.

[oldhippy]

Regardless what you think it is good practice and learning. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

19 minutes ago, Galilea said:

that is seriously impressive that you have learned this, and in all reality something

Eyup J , i haven't learned this, I'm learning this .

21 minutes ago, Galilea said:

(trying to crowd out earlier comments from feed on right) Neverenough, that is seriously impressive that you have learned this, and in all reality something I doubt I will ever learn. I did think one could ... why do you want to vibrate the hairspring in the first place? Thanks.

This is just a check for me J , I'm not adjusting anything until i know for sure it will correct the issue I'm having. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, rehajm said:

So then proper procedure is what? Optical Regression of an appropriate stud point (i.e. That looks good as any1)

What's the question what you asking I'm not quite sure what you're getting at?

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

t wasn't too bad john, a little difficult to fully ascertain as the timing is some way out. I will also add that this is a pin pallet movement

Still looks like it was within the range of the timing machine. Oh and were now timing pin palette chronometer movements What kinda timekeeping you suspect from your chronometer pin palette movement? Also I assume that your regulator pins are at the proper spacing of close together because of their far apart that's going to give you an issue.

So if we assume the hairspring is wrong and everything else is correct and it doesn't look like in a timing screws on that chronometer grade balance wheel I would use a small drill and undercut and lighten the balance wheel out as it's not a chronometer grade watch I probably wouldn't get too excited about the poise so just try to take off a little each side and do it really slowly because it's hard to add weight back on doing it this way.

 

[rehajm]

10 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

What's the question what you asking I'm not quite sure what you're getting at?

He cannot adjust the watch timing via the regulator since he has no more room to move it. So now what? What should be the proper thing to do? If it is to move the location of the stud on the hairspring how should he approach finding the appropriate location if his attempt at discovery with the vibrating tool is incorrect or impractical?

Certainly we can infer the proper direction of a new stud location but what's best practice to find an accurate location for the re-pin?

Edited July 29, 2023 by rehajm

[Neverenoughwatches]

28 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Still looks like it was within the range of the timing machine. Oh and were now timing pin palette chronometer movements What kinda timekeeping you suspect from your chronometer pin palette movement? Also I assume that your regulator pins are at the proper spacing of close together because of their far apart that's going to give you an issue.

Yes it was within the range of the timing machine, but i wasn't able to regulate the movement any further ( faster) With the pins about to fall away from the endcurve into the first coil. The regulator pin spacing i considered good, with a total spacing of two hairspring widths including the hairspring itself, so half each side of the hs. The hairspring tapped both pins nicely and rested in the center when still, so no active point running back to the stud and the timing was fairly consistant, though i admit i didnt check any vertical positions. I did expect better timing than this though, other pin pallet movements i have are much better. Actually Oris produced extremely accurate pin pallet watches apparently capable of chronometer spec. 

49 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

if we assume the hairspring is wrong and everything else is correct and it doesn't look like in a timing screws on that chronometer grade balance wheel I would use a small drill and undercut and lighten the balance wheel out as it's not a chronometer grade watch I probably wouldn't get too excited about the poise so just try to take off a little each side and do it really slowly because it's hard to add weight back on

I don't want to assume anything just yet until I'm sure i have no course of action besides adjusting the hairspring or the balance. The balance wheel is very simple and has in fact quite a few weight reducing dimples already around its rim from the factory.  I was more prefering to reduce the hs length and reform the endcurve a little more into the coils.

[JohnR725]

42 minutes ago, rehajm said:

He cannot adjust the watch timing via the regulator since he has no more room to move it. So now what? What should be the proper thing to do? If it is to move the location of the stud on the hairspring how should he approach finding the appropriate location if his attempt at discovery with the vibrating tool is incorrect or impractical?

Certainly we can infer the proper direction of a new stud location but what's best practice to find an accurate location for the re-pin?

To deal with a problem like this first what is the problem?

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

possible someone has put a new hs in and is incorrect. The watch is 70 odd years old.

So we've determined the problem is a new hairspring was put on and where exactly did that hairspring come from anyway?

As a reminder if you have an over coil hairspring typically they were available separate from the balance wheel. I'm not going go into all the technical reasons but they were typically premade the balance wheel is matched to the hairspring. Flat hairspring is almost never are available separate because typically each one is vibrated to the exact balance wheel it's on. Then in both cases where hairsprings were available you would have to have timing screws. Some very early vintage American pocket watches possibly others with balance wheels with nose screws they hairspring flat had extra spring. So you would have something to work with.

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

pin pallet movement

Now low quality watch what kinda timekeeping was expected and remember they were not trying to please a timing machine?

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The hairspring has quite a low number of coils and seems very weak for the weight balance wheel.

Okay let's just assume the hairspring is wrong.

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The regulator pin spacing i considered good, with a total spacing of two hairspring widths including the hairspring itself, so half each side of the hs.

Okay so basically what you're saying is half on each side of the spacing and the hairsprings the mill they should be fine for that

There's two solutions to the problem. Shortening the hairspring or lightning the balance wheel. Balance wheels with timing screws make this much easier. But it doesn't look like you have those.

So shortening it is. I look forward to hearing how well it turns out. As a reminder the regulating points for the regulator pins should corresponds to roughly the vibrating point not the pinning point. More than likely I'll have to redo the terminal curve because you're going to be shortening the hairspring I have no idea how much.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

So we've determined the problem is a new hairspring was put on and where exactly did that hairspring come from anyway?

I can't determine that just yet John until I've explored a little deeper. One reason i wanted to check directly the timing of the balance on its own.  

11 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

where exactly did that hairspring come from anyway?

As a reminder if you have an over coil hairspring typically they were available separate from the balance wheel. I'm not going go into all the technical reasons but they were typically premade the balance wheel is matched to the hairspring. Flat hairspring is almost never are available separate because typically each one is vibrated to the exact balance wheel it's on. Then in both cases where hairsprings were available you would have to have timing screws. Some very early vintage American pocket watches possibly others with balance wheels with nose screws they hairspring flat had extra spring. So you would have something to work with

A past repairer may have just taken this hs from another watch with the same diameter balance wheel.  A lighter wheel with a weaker spring than the original. Is it possible that this is original and has fatigued ? You can see how much the spring is stretching under the weight of the balance wheel. Fried's general rule of thumb besides an appropriate diameter was a spring of a set number range of coils to stretch no more than half to three quarters of an inch under the weight of the balance wheel. This is considerably more. 

26 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Now low quality watch what kinda timekeeping was expected and remember they were not trying to please a timing machine?

Understood John, but no reason i shouldn't attempt to improve it. The watch was manufactured sometime in the 60s AHS43.

[rehajm]

41 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

To deal with a problem like this first what is the problem?

Did you not read the posts upthread? You've made several comments to the effcet that you have, yet now I'm not so certain...

Edited July 29, 2023 by rehajm

[Neverenoughwatches]

35 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

But it doesn't look like you have those.

So shortening it is. I look forward to hearing how well it turns out. As a reminder the regulating points for the regulator pins should corresponds to roughly the vibrating point not the pinning point. More than likely I'll have to redo the terminal curve because you're going to be shortening the hairspring I have no idea how much

No balance screws John. Thanks John i appreciate the help. Yes i know about the extra length for pinning. I will be aiming for building a new terminal curve with the active point at its center and regulator arm at mid way.

4 minutes ago, rehajm said:

Did you not read the posts upthread? You've made several comments to the effcet that you have, yet now I'm not so certain...

John is just helping to understand why we are doing something and if we should actually be doing it. And to make sure we are fully understanding what the problem really is. One problem can have many causes. Acting on the wrong cause isn't always reversible.  John is an excellent teacher, his input is fully appreciated. 

[JohnR725]

12 minutes ago, rehajm said:

Did you not read the posts upthread? You've made several comments to the effcet that you have, yet now I'm not so certain...

Well I think you're right and what should we do about the problem

[RichardHarris123]

Today I drank, then ate.  Rinse and repeat. 

[rehajm]

9 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Today I drank, then ate.  Rinse and repeat. 

I’m moving on from trying to gain a watch education to the drinking…

[Neverenoughwatches]

15 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Well I think you're right and what should we do about the problem

Its good to question why we do something when unsure

11 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Today I drank, then ate.  Rinse and repeat. 

And what should we do about that problem?  I know the answer " its not a problem "

[JohnR725]

6 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Its good to question why we do something when unsure

 

37 minutes ago, rehajm said:

Did you not read the posts upthread? You've made several comments to the effcet that you have, yet now I'm not so certain...

I think what I will do is bow out of this discussion until I developed the proper reading skills to interpret what's going on I think that would be the best solution.