Help! First real attempt. Waltham 1877 PW

[JayPoorJay]

Good day...

I'm hoping for some help and guidance.

As the title says, I'm trying.

I purchased a non running (I know it's strongly suggested not to) Waltham Pocket Watch. A 1877 Wm. Ellery full hunter. See photos. Getting this thing running is super important for a couple of reasons. One, is I plan to give this to my Lady for her birthday either running or non running - with the promise of getting it running. Two, I paid a pretty penny (for my economic reality) for it... Pressure is on, lol

I'm going to try and describe what is or isn't happening to the best of my ability, please excuse the poor use of terminology. 

The watch seemed to be fully wound. I opened and partly disassembled, removing the movement from the case... I let the main spring down. I removed the balance wheel assembly. I removed the pallet fork assembly.

I noticed that if I turned the barrel the train would not turn even though the barrel did. I turned the large gear in the center of the movement by hand,,, the train would run smoothly down the line. 

What it seems like is happening is that the smaller gear (small silver gear - red arrow) on that center wheel (first in the train off the barrel) turns while the larger gear does not. See photo. They are able to turn independently of one another though. Is that a thing?

Seems like energy stored in the spring can't make it into the train as the smaller gear turns but is not transferring the energy into the larger attached gear, on down the train. It just spins... Could this be?

Please. All suggestions and advise are super welcomed. Thanks in advance.

[nickelsilver]

Quite likely this suffered from a broken mainspring, with the mainspring wound quite a bit. The shock of that release of energy can actually break teeth on wheels and pinions. A lot of American stuff is marked "safety pinion", which is a center pinion that's threaded onto the center wheel; in a mainspring breakage the pinion unscrews, avoiding damage.

 

In your case it seems the shock stripped the rivetting between pinion and wheel. You might be able to re-stake the rivet with a staking tool, but will still be shaky. Try Dave's Watch Parts, a replacement center wheel is your best bet. You might need to email him with specifics. Other U.S. suppliers may have it too.

 

Actually, looking at it, something seems off, curious what others have to say, but this might be Swiss (back in the day they actually faked American watches)... in that case, re-staking might be the only option.

Edited February 21, 2023 by nickelsilver

[RichardHarris123]

First time I came across a safety pinion, I wondered what the f#%k had happened   hehe.  I learnt though.  Pictures of the dial please. 

[JayPoorJay]

This is the dial face, if that's what you mean by dial...?

I was thinking to contact Dave. I don't have a staking tool. Never used one or gotten close, lol...

I do think the pinon stripped away from the wheel, like was said. I would like to know more about the safety pinion being talked about. Have no idea what that is.

[RichardHarris123]

7 minutes ago, JayPoorJay said:

This is the dial face, if that's what you mean by dial...?

I was thinking to contact Dave. I don't have a staking tool. Never used one or gotten close, lol...

I do think the pinon stripped away from the wheel, like was said. I would like to know more about the safety pinion being talked about. Have no idea what that is.

Look up safety pinion.  I thought I had broken the watch. 

[JayPoorJay]

40 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Look up safety pinion.  I thought I had broken the watch. 

Cool. Thanks. I took as close a look as I could at the pinion and wheel,,, it didn't look as separated as the one in the photo above but it was definitely spinning.

As a short term "fix", I was able to get a small spot of solder between the pinion and wheel and the spinning stopped BUT (and there's always a but) now I think the wheel doesn't spin freely enough on the bridge. I put the thing back together, it wants to run, but will not. It does take a wind up. Runs slow then comes to a stop.

I haven't fully disassembled the watch and cleaned everything, though.

 

[JohnR725]

18 hours ago, JayPoorJay said:

I let the main spring down.

 

18 hours ago, JayPoorJay said:

Seems like energy stored in the spring can't make it into the train as the smaller gear turns but is not transferring the energy into the larger attached gear, on down the train. It just spins... Could this be?

What you're describing above cannot possibly happen. As others have already described the purpose of the safety pinion is to unscrew if the mainspring breaks this is a prevent the energy from breaking the rest of the watch. If it unscrews none of the energy of the mainspring can get to the rest of the watch As they won't be any energy because the mainspring is broken. So if that is a safety pinion and it has come unscrewed you cannot wind the watch up and you would never be let the power off because would be no power

So something else is going on

14 hours ago, JayPoorJay said:

As a short term "fix", I was able to get a small spot of solder between the pinion and wheel and the spinning stopped BUT (and there's always a but) now I think the wheel doesn't spin freely enough on the bridge. I put the thing back together, it wants to run, but will not. It does take a wind up. Runs slow then comes to a stop.

Then the solder fixes interesting especially because we haven't established exactly what's going on.

Then when was the last time the watch was service? Vintage watches that haven't been serviced typically have the vintage lubrication. Vintage lubrication typically is no longer a lubrication and is more like glue. That means that the power through the gear train will be nonexistent and the watch will not run without a proper cleaning and new lubrication. Plus I recommend changing the mainspring it's probably set any way unless of course it's broken but it doesn't sound like it's broken?

 

[JayPoorJay]

5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

 

What you're describing above cannot possibly happen. As others have already described the purpose of the safety pinion is to unscrew if the mainspring breaks this is a prevent the energy from breaking the rest of the watch. If it unscrews none of the energy of the mainspring can get to the rest of the watch As they won't be any energy because the mainspring is broken. So if that is a safety pinion and it has come unscrewed you cannot wind the watch up and you would never be let the power off because would be no power

So something else is going on

Then the solder fixes interesting especially because we haven't established exactly what's going on.

Then when was the last time the watch was service? Vintage watches that haven't been serviced typically have the vintage lubrication. Vintage lubrication typically is no longer a lubrication and is more like glue. That means that the power through the gear train will be nonexistent and the watch will not run without a proper cleaning and new lubrication. Plus I recommend changing the mainspring it's probably set any way unless of course it's broken but it doesn't sound like it's broken?

 

Hello John. To your first paragraph, I'm not sure what you mean. The spring can wind. I have it wound with the solder "fix" (which I don't think is going to work) and the watch is trying to run. The keyless works, and the gearing responsible for winding the watch, and then this first wheel, I thought, were different areas of the movement - the wheel in question not being involved in the winding exactly, but the springs ability to transmit it's power I to the train,,, no?

This watch working think is like CRACK or something. I was stuck in front of my - still in development - bench ALL.DAY.LONG messing with the thing. I cleaned what I could by hand and ultrasonically. I didn't dare take everything apart for two reasons. Fear of not getting it back together AND bad tools. My screwdrivers are toast - have a stainless pair coming, due on Friday. 

Anyone ever completely lost the day LOOKING at the guts of a watch? 

[JohnR725]

Sometimes confusion with what I say occurs because I'm using dictation software. But in this particular case the safety pinion found on the center wheel is supposed to unscrew if the mainspring is broken. So if that was why that part is loose that would mean the mainspring broke. If the mainspring is broken it cannot be wound up.

So as I comments you originally said you let the power off if you initially let the power off and you had a broken mainspring well that would be impossible

then the part that's broken we really need better views of that because you're right the solders not going to hold. It would be nice to know if it actually is unscrewed or whether it's somehow broken typically the pinion is not a separate component if it's not the safety version in other words entire steel shaft with gear is one component usually frictions or riveted very securely to the brass gear and if that came undone that's going to be an issue.

18 minutes ago, JayPoorJay said:

Fear of not getting it back together

This is where ideally it's better to practice with something disposable and initially. But at least you grasp the fear part if you screwup then you're going to have to get a replacement movement off of eBay if you can find one. So many people don't grasp the consequences of their initial watch repair because after all they've seen all the videos on YouTube and they all make watch repair looks so simple.

 

[JayPoorJay]

Thanks Man! I will try and supply a better photo. For sure. I am also composing a letter to Dave for a replacement center wheel as we speak. New spring and this center wheel.

The "break" or unscrewing of the center wheel was/is strange. It didn't look like the photo that was posted earlier in the thread and for sure, there is little or no space between the pinion and the wheel above it BUT,,, it just spins and spins. It would catch occasionally, then go back to spinning. I applied a micro drop of solder on the top side of the wheel (side outermost towards the caseback) then put the bridge over that,,, when back with some 800grit paper to clean things up, but it's no good. The watch tries to run, then stops. Honestly, I don't know if that's the problem.

Most everything concerned with or involved with the transfer of power from the barrel, the bridges, the wheels, the fork, the balance, the wheels for the stem went into the cleaner. I stopped at the keyless works.

 I put it back together, made some kind of mistake with the gearing for the winding stem,,, and NOW have to take it all apart again, lol... What a beautiful headACHE!

I really DO appreciate your support and guidance! Thank you!

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, JayPoorJay said:

it just spins and spins. It would catch occasionally,

It probably is a safety pinion. The problem is there is lots and lots of variations I've had somewhere exactly which are describing of trying to get the stay threaded is the issue because sometimes the threads are not really the best. Other times was some watches their very aggressive threads very noticeable but sometimes are not.

But no matter what if the center pinion is not attached to the center wheel then the mainspring cannot hold because the mainspring barrel pushes against that and the gear train so initially if that was unscrewed you absolutely cannot wind the watch up or for that matter you cannot let the power off so that's a bit of a mystery here

[JayPoorJay]

Good Morning John, I've been thinking about what you've said, this mystery...

Below is a shot of the center wheel and it's pinion connection, before soldering.

Admittedly, in many ways I don't know what I am looking at. But I'll try and describe what I think might be going on.

The teeth on the large wheel of the center wheel engage with the first (second?) wheel of the train. The smaller pinion, on the underside (the pinion in question) is engaged with the large wheel on the TOP of the barrel. On the underside of the barrel is a separate toothed gear with a central square fitting that is in union with the barrel and spring by way of a square shaped protrusion that is a part of the POST that goes thru and to the underside of the barrel... That post is part of the (don't know the correct name) bit that engages the spring inside of barrel. Shweeew, I hope that made some sense.

With that, the larger/upper gear of the center wheel will drive the train (if I turn by hand), the pinion on the underside of the center wheel spins/spin freely at it's contact with the barrel gear (the fault), while the gear on the underside of the barrel engaged with the stem, clutch and keyless machinery prevents/controls the movement and winding of the barrel??? - this I think allowed the watch to be wound AND let down independently of the train and center wheel pinion but only due to the faulty pinion...?

As a question, I didn't think that the center wheel or train actually HELD the energy in the spring and barrel, but only transmitted it??? I think the wheel in the underside of the barrel holds the energy? No?

Lol, help me know if anything I just tried to explain makes any sense what so ever!? I clearly have a long ways to go, lol

Dave sent the "new" center wheel and main spring. We'll see what happens.

Open to ALL suggestions, of course I am.

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by JayPoorJay

[JayPoorJay]

Good Morning All...

So this is what I'm noticing as I get close to having this thing back together. 

With any wind in the watch the inner more jewel on the pallet fork seems to miss the escape wheel and just kinda bounce off of it, or like it skips, and the wheel train just winds out. Like it's a little too far from the escape wheel - things happen very fast, then the wind runs out.

Is this a shows over for this pocket watch? Is it an adjustment of the jewel (way above my skill set). 

What do I need to understand or, what can I check for?

It will be a day or four before I can get back to the watch, so forgive my late replies.

Jay

[RichardHarris123]

We need a picture of the pallet, as a guess either one of the jewels is broken or loose.  The picture will help. 

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, JayPoorJay said:

What do I need to understand or, what can I check for?

first thing we need to do is not the jump to conclusions but figure out what the problem is.

we need some really good pictures like with the balance wheel removed and just a little power preferably or no power push the pallet fork against one of the banking pins and get us a picture looking straight down and then another picture with the pallet fork pushed of the other direction. It's possible somebody's moved 20 or banking pins because they can be moved and people loved to move them.

You also want to take the pallet fork out and make sure you still have pivots. That's extremely common thing when your new is to misplace one of the pivots it happens all of us.

also any of the pallet fork out look carefully at the jewels and make sure they're both parallel with the fork. In other words make sure one jewel is sticking up or down. Plus check the shellac under the jewels to make sure it still there and you don't have a loose jewel

 

[JayPoorJay]

I'll do my best and get back this ASAP...

Thank you both, very much.

Talk soon