Figuring Out Parts

[MarvinsP32]

I'm posting this in the beginners because I figure it has been explained a million times and the very experienced moderators will be more forgiving of my basic question here!

The first pocket watch I've tackled is a Waltham 1883 18S with a serial number of 8248400. It's an openface with a full plate (which I've since learned might not have been the easiest thing to start with) and I think I've diagnosed at least one main problem. The fork has a broken pivot/point on one end and I'll need to find a new one.

Here's where my question comes in. I look through all the parts (mostly on eBay) but it's really hard to understand exactly which fork is right for the watch I have. I know I need one that goes with the openface style instead of a hunter, but that's where my research hits a wall.

I see detailed descriptions like these:

• WALTHAM 18 SIZE ESCAPE WHEEL AND FORK , OPEN FACE ,MODEL 1877 - 1879 , WITH QUICK TRAIN,  #952 + 1027
• WALTHAM ESCAPE WHEEL AND FORK , MODEL 1883 OPEN FACE , ESCAPE WHEEL AND FORK 1337-1308
• WALTHAM 18 SIZE   MODEL 1857 ESCAPE WHEEL AND FORK , #259-306

Where I'm stuck is on the things like "Quick Train" and the different part numbers (eg. #952 + 1027, 1337-1308 or #259-306).

The pictures of the parts all look the exact same, but I'm pretty sure just picking on that looks right won't go very well.

Any advice?

[watchweasol]

Hi Marvin you need JohnR725 on the case our vintage and Waltham guru. And have a look at Dave’s watch parts.com for Waltham Elgin bits   Another mine of information is thepocketwatchdatabase,   Insert the serial number on the watch and do a search fit the model, size ,grade.  It’s all there.

[MarvinsP32]

Thanks watchweasol for the response. Your response made me feel decently smart. I'd dug through daveswatchparts.com (they had the Hunter fork only) and the pocketwatchdatabase. I just could find the specifics to explain the different part numbers in the descriptions I was looking at. I'm guessing there are tons of stories on this forum about weird eBay postings like that. I'll be excited to hear from @JohnR725if he happens to see this. The Waltham's are my favorite right now so connecting with a real guru on them would be awesome. Really appreciate the kind response.

[JohnR725]

12 hours ago, MarvinsP32 said:

Waltham 1883 18S with a serial number of 8248400

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/8248400

With your serial number and the pocket watch database on the left-hand side it says parts you can get a parts listing. But with Waltham's it isn't always that simple.

12 hours ago, MarvinsP32 said:

full plate (which I've since learned might not have been the easiest thing to start with) and I think I've diagnosed at least one main problem. The fork has a broken pivot/point on one end and I'll need to find a new one.

Yes 18 size full plate is definitely not the best watch to start with. Then because you don't understand how to deal with the pallet fork or somebody before you didn't breaking the pivots is a very common thing to do.

Ideally when starting watch repair my recommendation is to start with a 6497 or 6498 pocket watch movement. It's a modern pocket watch it's basically just a really large wristwatch and you buy the Chinese clone off eBay or your favorite place to buy Chinese stuff less than $50 it's running and you can learn how watches work. Or you can start with a mintage watch hoping that you can somehow fix it.

12 hours ago, MarvinsP32 said:

fork

Pallet forks are going to be a nightmare. If you look at your watch you'll notice the serial number is on every single bridge component and inscribed usually on the balance wheel because everything is matched. If you get a different pallet fork it probably won't work because it has to be adjusted for that watch and this is a full plate adjusting a pallet fork on a full plate is a nightmare. So let's say what we can do about saving your pallet fork another way

12 hours ago, MarvinsP32 said:

"Quick Train"

Early American pocket watches ran at a slower frequency Then they switched to 18,000 beats per hour which is what I think quick train means. In other words it's the standard rate now 18 size pocket watches were made earlier than the other sizes and if you have a key wine diversion it might have this lower frequency.

So the bottom watch database we find it's in 1883. You click the link on the left hand side in a give you images of the parts.

13 hours ago, MarvinsP32 said:

I see detailed descriptions like these:

• WALTHAM 18 SIZE ESCAPE WHEEL AND FORK , OPEN FACE ,MODEL 1877 - 1879 , WITH QUICK TRAIN,  #952 + 1027
• WALTHAM ESCAPE WHEEL AND FORK , MODEL 1883 OPEN FACE , ESCAPE WHEEL AND FORK 1337-1308
• WALTHAM 18 SIZE   MODEL 1857 ESCAPE WHEEL AND FORK , #259-306

Now the problem with your descriptions here are first one is not for your model number. The last one is not for your model number either and the middle one for 1883 is right but now we have to find the part numbers. The problem will become lots of things like old part numbers sometimes get upgraded to new part numbers that we somehow have to figure that out

Then another place once you know what you're looking for would be another material book like found at this link

https://archive.org/details/catalogueofwalth00walt/page/38/mode/2up

As you can see clicking on the link will take you to the right page hopefully 1883.You can also scroll down and download a PDF or whatever your favorite format is.

Okay I took out a image from the catalog it looks like the middle part description is right for the escape wheel and a pallet fork. No idea whether that is the correct pallet fork or not on the other hand. The last time I had to deal with a full-size 18 whatever pallet fork was after going through all the pallet forks we had I just change the arbor I swiped it from one of the other ones I think but don't quote me they friction in some of him screw in but I think this one frictions in you do need to have the right tools though to get it out. It actually should be listed as a separate part but I'm not seeing it right now you probably won't bill Byatt is a separate part because a lot of them have been broken over the years.

Then for anyone else reading this discussion and for you I have some pictures. Obviously this discussion is come up before somewhere in the universe. Some people try to assemble the watch upside down I find that's a pain so the preferred way is to assemble it in your standard fashion except the pallet fork has to be held to the upper plate because as you can see it sticks under something if you tried to put the plate down when the  fork is on the plate you'll break the pivot or someone else will. The easiest way to hold the fork in place is to take a small piece of mainspring folded over heated up ports folded and you can make a little clip like shown in the image. If you get really creative like I did with my cut a little notch in the end and that can hold a little better. Doesn't really matter yes off to hold the fork until you can bring the plate down and somehow get all the pivots in place then you can take the clip out otherwise you get a broken  pivot.

As I said some people put it together with that plate down but that means your center wheel sticking up in the fourth wheel sticking up in the F get those through the plate it's really easier to do it this way where you flip this over and put this down on to the rest of the watch. But no matter what a full plate is a pain in the ass to do.

[watchweasol]

Hi johnR  that little spring clip is a handy tool, I used a bit of rodico and when assembled wrinkled it out, that tool I think is a must.  Going to make one soon,  thanks for the pictures.  Cheers

[RichardHarris123]

I have a similar watch, I'll post pictures later.  The spring holder tool is a great idea.  The first time I did one, I put a couple of bridge screws in loosely and inserted the pallet with tweezers but the holder seems a mutch better option. 

More photos to follow 

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, watchweasol said:

I used a bit of rodico

Yes that nice sticky green stuff. I did that at work once because I didn't have my tool there. It seemed like such a nice idea at the time but trying to get it back out again between the plates was quite a pain I probably put more than I should have. Then when I went home I just made another one so I can have the Springs that but work. That's also where I got clever and used one of the diamond or grinding discs to cut a little slits in the and so you can go right over of the pallet fork arbor that's not necessary but sometimes it's helpful.

 

 

[MarvinsP32]

@JohnR725First let me apologize for going dark after asking for help. There's nothing worse than when daily life gets in the way of hobbying!

I can't thank you enough for the incredible wealth of information. Everything was so clear and I had figured the pallet fork was going to be impossible for me until you shared the spring idea. I've got mine made and now I'm just waiting for parts and oil to arrive.

I'm having a blast with all of this so far, but I'm not super patient when I'm starting a new hobby and I'm getting the sense that this one involves a ton of waiting on USPS!

I chuckled about your comment regarding the difficulty of starting with this full plate watch. I never intend to, but I have a habit of starting new hobbies in ways that are way more difficult than I need to (wood working, ring making, welding, astrophotography, crocheting, etc., etc.).

Anyway, the new pallet fork arrived about an hour ago and it looks really close. The small metal bar it's attached to looks a little less wide than on the old one and I'm not sure whether that matters or not. Added a pic below.

Close examination showed a bit of rusting on the Crown Wheel (pic below) and I'm going to replace it. I'm guessing I could save it, but I bought a donor movement for $15 before you helped me figure out the right pallet for. Told you I was impatient!

The only other part that I'm a little concerned about is the Winding Bar (pic below). It has some rusting and pitting. Unfortunately my donor is the movement only. I'm hoping with some more cleaning I can make it work. Otherwise I'll have to figure out replacing that as well.

All of these pics are taken using my $32 USB microscope attached to an old podcast microphone arm I had laying around. I made a simple adapter and it has worked beautifully. I'm very proud of it so gave you a pic of that as well.

Once everything arrives Monday, including more Moebius 9010 from Amazon because they shipped me an empty bottle, I'll get started with my reassembly. I'll report back on my progress.

I'd love any more feedback or thoughts and really appreciate all the help!

[JohnR725]

17 minutes ago, MarvinsP32 said:

I'm having a blast with all of this so far, but I'm not super patient when I'm starting a new hobby and I'm getting the sense that this one involves a ton of waiting on USPS!

Supposedly watch we compare requires a lot of patience. It could involve a lot of repeating the same task over and over and over again until you get things together right that can be a pain in the ass to do for any fuss. In a waiting for a package to be delivered that's nothing what about waiting on eBay until the part shows up? Times you're looking for something else up on eBay eventually if you wait long enough if you're lucky maybe perhaps

oh and you pallet fork picture upper left the stone is slightly up it needs to be back down again.

19 minutes ago, MarvinsP32 said:

I'm a little concerned about is the Winding Bar

I would try to clean that up with some steel wool because the stem as it's called and the sleeve that it goes into if you want to replace those you're going to have to go back in time quite a bit if the sleeve is damage to get a new one is nearly impossible even if you have an assortment you go through a sizable assortment and still not find the right one. These both have to be right and then the sleeve definitely has to be in the right place they can move in and out and change it stepping location you'll have problems. So ideally want to keep these original and everything wherever that you found them otherwise that patients thing will come in as you have to slowly tweak things to get them back where there supposed to be

 

[MarvinsP32]

12 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

oh and you pallet fork picture upper left the stone is slightly up it needs to be back down again.

I can't believe you saw that. I looked at it for 5 mins and never noticed it. Would I have to melt the shellac to move that? 

I would try to clean that up with some steel wool because the stem 

That was my plan. I'm not looking for perfection in my first go. If I can just get it running, I'll be pretty happy.

 

 

[MarvinsP32]

It was an adventure, but I think I’ve got the new pallet fork jewel back in the correct place.