Adjusted Elgin 832

[diamondslayer]

This is an adjusted Elgin 832. It runs 4min. Fast in 36hrs. Is it possible it is magnetized. I am getting a timegraph machine in two weeks or so. Can you help without that data?

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[Geo]

It runs 4min. Fast in 36hrs. Is it possible it is magnetized. I am getting a timegraph machine in two weeks or so. Can you help without that data?

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It is possibly magnetised or contaminated. It's always a good idea to demagnetise as a meter of course when servicing a watch. If you have a demagnetiser, zap it and see how it goes.

When you get your timegrapher, post pictures of the results and someone will give you advice. Have a look at this in the meantime:- http://www.watchrepairtalk.com/page/index.html/_/watch-repair-information/timegrapher-fault-detection-r29

[diamondslayer]

Thanks Geo!

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[autowind]

It might just be my myopic eyes but I cannot see any regulator,  if there is,  it's well hidden.

[diamondslayer]

It's an adjusted watch. There is none. Which makes it an easy watch to work on but a harder watch to regulate if it is out of balance.

Btw Geo, it only gains time in regular wearing position, when the crown is down. I can't wait for my timegraph. It is making a trip across the pond right now.

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[diamondslayer]

It is possibly magnetised or contaminated. It's always a good idea to demagnetise as a meter of course when servicing a watch. If you have a demagnetiser, zap it and see how it goes.

When you get your timegrapher, post pictures of the results and someone will give you advice. Have a look at this in the meantime:- http://www.watchrepairtalk.com/page/index.html/_/watch-repair-information/timegrapher-fault-detection-r29

Here you go Geo

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[diamondslayer]

I know I have a good tick, but I just want to make sure I am doing it right. You move the jewel manually under the balance to regulate the rate right?

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Edited June 8, 2015 by diamondslayer

[anilv]

Hi diamondslayer

Magnetism will result in errors way greater...more like 4mins fast in an hour.

I would service the watch first before attempting anything else, maybe a new mainspring while you're in there.

Being adjusted means that he watch has been fine-tuned by the factory to get the best possible results. It does not mean no regulator! In fact most adjusted watches have good quality regulators which allow fine tuning.

Not sure what jewel you mean but if its the roller jewel you are talking about there's nothing to be achieved here.

Anil

[diamondslayer]

Thanks Anil!

I cleaned the watch already. So do you think it is still the mainspring? Why is it still showing 170+ rate?

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Edited June 9, 2015 by diamondslayer

[diamondslayer]

Could it be because I tested it in the case?

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[JohnR725]

A note regarding the missing regulator it's not missing. Regulators cause timing problems free sprung balances don't have that problem so Elgin came up with a innovative solution to the regulator problem the Durabalance. The unfortunate problem with their solution is it tends to frustrated and confused the watchmaker who probably never seen one of these before. Fortunately it is in the service manual which can be found at the link below.

 

http://www.flynwill.com/Watches/ElginManual/ElginMan18.htm

 

Then a note regarding the timing machine it's not going to really show any meaningful numbers unless it's over 200° amplitude. When the watches been freshly serviced it should be much closer to 300° only falling into the 200 range at the end of 24 hours running. Trying to regulate the watch when the amplitude is way below 200° will definitely not be a good thing for you.

 

Here's a link to a PDF with a lot of useful information even though the timing machine is different the information is still valid.

 

http://www.witschi.com/assets/files/sheets/Witschi%20Training%20Course.pdf

 

When you cleaned the watch did you remove the mainspring from the barrel?

[anilv]

Wow...thanks John...never knew this existed!

Anil

[diamondslayer]

Yes, but I have to wind it by hand. I had some thin finger cots that kept getting broken in the spring while I put it back in the barrel. I have some finger cots that are thicker and I think they are going to do a better job.

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[diamondslayer]

Wow John that info is awesome! Thanks!!

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[JohnR725]

Witschi Has some other things on timing you might find interesting. First one is kind of similar to the other link but different. The second PDF explains were all those numbers come from related to timing.

 

Test and measuring technology mechanical watches

http://www.witschi.com/assets/files/sheets/Test%20and%20measuring%20technology%20mechanical%20watches.pdf

 

Calculation of the values X-D-DVH-Di-Im-N

 

http://www.witschi.com/assets/files/sheets/Calculation%20of%20the%20values%20X-D-DVH-Di-Im-N.pdf

 

 

The problem with the watch are working on is it is really small. The problem with really small watches is everything becomes super critical.

[diamondslayer]

Cool, thanks John! I am using 8201 on my mainsprings. Should I use something else? Like 8300?

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[JohnR725]

Most of the time for mainspring is I'm using 8200. Then 8201 is basically the same thing with some molybdenumdisulphide which does make for a nice lubrication except in this application. Then 8300 is just a little bit heavier which definitely wouldn't be good for this application.

 

http://hiro.alliancehorlogere.com/en/Under_the_Loupe/Moebius_8201

 

Notice on the above link the reference to using 8201 as a breaking grease for automatic watches? One of the the interesting properties of all greases and probably technically all lubrication's they also function as a braking function. In the case of the automatic watch the mainspring  has the potential of being continuously wound so it has to to slip at some point in time. So they use a grease that holds until it's released and lubrication's with molybdenumdisulphide work well for that application. But as all greases hold until the release also have the unfortunate characteristic of if they're too heavy not allowing the mainspring to slide in its normal fashion. Which probably sounds like a hopelessly confusing thing that I'm saying. So normally the grease works fine for a mainspring as there is lots of pressure and the braking effect isn't even noticed but on a really tiny watch these greases are just too heavy their way too sticky.

 

Next link overload of lubrication information. Notice the reference on 8200 that it semi liquid and 8300 solid. Plus just a whole lot of general information in here on Mobius lubrication.

 

http://www.m-p.co.uk/muk/acrobat/hse/moebius-hs-sheets/moebius-specsbook.pdf

 

So on page 15 of the above link is the lubrication chart. So notice for really tiny watches the mainspring is not a grease but a oil 8030. Then 8200 universal mainspring grease for just about everything and towards the end switching over to 8300.

 

So another document covering lubrication

 

http://www.bhi.co.uk/Documents/certificate/Tech/PractLub.pdf

 

Then I wouldn't run out by any 8030 for just one watch. One of the problems I have with all of the 8000 series lubrication's are that there are natural and I would really prefer synthetic.

 

So I don't know if I have a good recommendation for your mainspring so an absence of that at pick a heavy watch oil or light clock oil preferably synthetic.

[diamondslayer]

Thanks John! I am going to sign up for ACWI institute and finish some of their courses. I can't wait to learn more.

Our watch maker passed away and his wife took all his tools. So it has been difficult trying to learn and carry on our business! I was his apprentice. I used to be in sales...lol

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