Moebius 8000 Evaporation is this normal

[Paul80]

Hi all

I had in for service an old Smiths Pin Pallet pocket watch from the 70's as it had no jewels and I know some of the modern Moebius Synthetic oils like HP1300 are not recommended for use on metal on metal bearings I figured I would try some of the older Natural oil alternatives, so got in some D5 to replace the HP1300 and some 8000 to replace the 9010.

All went ok with the rebuild and the watch was returned to a running condition, but one thing got me concerned, I put the oils in one of those generic white plastic oil cups, the one with three small dishes for the oil with a plastic lid. 

I had not marked to pots with any identification as to which oil was which so fine pen in hand I opened the lid and was surprised to see the dish where the 8000 was is now empty. Not sure why so I filed it again, put the lid on and waited an hour again before checking and once again the dish is empty.

Anyone know what’s going on with this 8000, it was a new bottle from Cousins with a 2023 exp date.

If it evaporates that quickly it can’t be much use for lubrication can it.

Any thoughts on this.

Thanks

[Kalanag]

I experienced exactly the same with this standard three dishes cup and Moebius 9010. After some time of sitting the oil had disappeared completely. Don‘t know whether the oil evaporated or got sucked into the plastic material. I suspect the latter. My next oil cup will be made of glass.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Kalanag

[canthus]

The D5 and 8000 are natural paraffinic oils and should not evaporate to this extent at room temps even in high temp countries.  Even if they did, then you would see residues left in the cups (synthetic PAO oils would not leave  much, if any residues after evaporation).   For oils to evaporate as such they would need to be very low viscosity (thickness) and similar to kerosine or BBQ lighter fuel (ie very thin and runny).

My instinct would be to consider them being from a bad batch (very unlikely for both to be so) or the oil cups are porous in some way. I doubt Cousins would sell a dodgy batch anyway,

I use a similar plastic type cup as you indicate and the oil stays there until it needs to be changed due to age or dirt ingress.

I would put a few drops on a metal plate or a mirror (easier to see residues), cover and see what happens. You could also try a few drops in an old plastic case that a new watch battery comes in. If they don't evaporate the the oil cups are suspect, and glass ones would sort your probem as Kalanag indicates.

Synthetic (PAO) oils like 9010 and HP1300 should be perfectly ok on metals and most plastics as the 'nasties' present in natural oils are not present.

Edited June 25, 2022 by canthus

[Paul80]

Thanks guys.

Good point about the oil cup, will investigate some more tomorrow with other types of container.

 

[Paul80]

Here is the offending oil pot and as you can see the 8200 and D5 are fine but the one that contained 8000 is empty with just minimal residue left, I tried it twise and both times the 8000 vanished very quickly.

I followed the advice above and put some 8000 on a mirror and left it sitting out in the open and now many hours later its still their shown no ill effect, obviously as suggested above the oil was obsorbed by the plastic oil cup, will not be using that again, will order some more glass or ceramic   versions.

Thanks for the help

Paul

 

[grsnovi]

I got one of these months ago on Amazon and while it seems to keep the oil just fine, the lids on mine don't pivot - they're just loose. Not sure if there was supposed to be a pin inserted or if they were supposed to be a snap fit, but they just lift off. The whole thing is pretty heavy. I think it's ceramic.

[Paul80]

I actually do have a couple of them but they are all full, which was why I grabbed the plastic one bought at the start of my watch repair journey. I was going to get more but they had doubled in price in only 6 months.

On mine the lids do hinge and have hung pins, although they are rather a loose fit and have be constantly pushed back, sounds like they forgot to fit yours.

Getting a replacement was not urgent but I will keep an eye on the prices kif they drop again. Or I might just get a single cup for the 8000, mind you I will not be in a rush to do another metal bearing, pin pallet watch, starting to think the Dollar watches where over priced

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, Paul80 said:

8000 is empty with just minimal residue left, I tried it twise and both times the 8000 vanished very quickly.

 

On 6/25/2022 at 10:51 AM, Kalanag said:

I experienced exactly the same with this standard three dishes cup and Moebius 9010. After some time of sitting the oil had disappeared completely. Don‘t know whether the oil evaporated or got sucked into the plastic material. I suspect the latter. My next oil cup will be made of glass.

plastic oil cups are interesting in that we don't know how the lubricants actually react with the plastic even though they were supposedly designed to hold oil. Real life to be designed to be cheap and I don't know if anyone bothered to test their chemical properties or not. Then the oil might not actually be evaporating hip might be doing something else perhaps at least the 9010 could be in that is if you want your oil the stay in place the surface has to be super clean. It's possible that the plastic has a film of oil would be perfect for this but it may have something on it that allows the oil to creep and spread. So the oil may not have evaporated it may have just spread itself away.

Is where if you read the fine print on oils like 9010 specifically any time it's used in watch epilam is typically used. Which is there to keep the oil from spreading away.

What I find for oil cups that I've always liked was individual glass cups. That's because I typically like to move the oil cup close to the watch one of boiling rather than reaching across the bench.

then there's the other concern I had with plastic which is when you stick your Oilers in do you scrape the plastic at all? Maybe not deliberately but if you do scrape the plastic you're going to introduce plastic particles into the oil which isn't going to be good at all

On 6/25/2022 at 10:27 AM, Paul80 said:

8000, it was a new bottle from Cousins with a 2023 exp date

normally that might not be a concern except have your read the technical sheet for this oil it has a two-year shelf life.

On 6/25/2022 at 10:27 AM, Paul80 said:

Moebius Synthetic oils like HP1300 are not recommended for use on metal on metal bearings I figured I would try some of the older Natural oil alternatives, so got in some D5 to replace the HP1300 and some 8000 to replace the 9010.

if you read the technical literature from the lubrication company only the HP oils are of concern. On the other hand if you read it any time 9010 is used whatever it's used with has to be epilam. Otherwise it has a habit of spreading hence the reason epilam on just about everything

if you want to try a light oil why don't you try 9020. Then yes I use it on non-jeweled bearings as far as I know I'm not having a problem.

then if you keep an eye on eBay oil cups will come up for sale. If you really like he can get the vintage individual agate ones otherwise shall find the glass ones that I find they clean up just fine because glass will clean up. Save your cheap you don't have to purchase a new oil cups use have to keep an eye open on eBay

[Kalanag]

18 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

…On the other hand if you read it any time 9010 is used whatever it's used with has to be epilam. Otherwise it has a habit of spreading hence the reason epilam on just about everything…

Based on John’s message I treated my plastic oil cup with Epilame.

What shall I say: Three hours later the Moebius 9010 hasn‘t vanished and still stays in place 

…to be continued…

Edited June 27, 2022 by Kalanag

[Paul80]

Just had a thought, yes nothing good comes from those.

If Moebious give their oils like their 8000 only a 2 year shelf life does that mean any watch it's used on needs to be serviced with a new bottle of oil every 2 years, with many watch makers recommending a service every 7 years something does not add up, are Moebious up to no good with their shelf life recommendations.

How many of you discard their bottles of rocking horse tears at or near the expiration date ?

[Kalanag]

Epilame does it!

A tiny drop of (bluish) Moebius 9010 in the epilamed plastic cup:

The same drop 15 hours later:

Edited June 28, 2022 by Kalanag

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, Paul80 said:

erviced with a new bottle of oil every 2 years

it brings up an interesting problem with all the oils that expire.

then there's a problem of why do the oils expire? All the organic oils are oils with organic materials you have the potential going bad but what about the synthetics? If you look at the early advertisements when they first introduce their synthetic oils they basically said they lasted forever. So forever should mean you shouldn't have to have a date.

then there's the other concerned that people have which is contamination. Specifically getting the oil out of the bottle without contaminating the bottle. That's why companies like Rolex supply lubrication put things in syringe is so there's no dipping things in the bottle.

Then the other reason why they put dates on things is up until dates you had no idea how old that ball was. The bottle could've been 10 years older 20 years old maybe it could've been sitting someplace in the sun which would be bad it got hot or you'd end up with bad lubrication even though it's a brand-new bottle. So people feel better about buying stuff with a date on it.

then with all of that we now throw in nice clean watch which you lubricate with your oil that supposed to expire in the bottle and what does this mean for the watch? With all sorts of varying how often a watch should be serviced for years to six is typical that means that when the oil expires in the bottle you're supposed to get another six years at least of it sympathetic. I'm not sure what the organic oils that expire in two years you might be pushing another two years for servicing

if you're working in a shop your collecting money to service stuff people bring you then you should be concerned about having the best quality and condition lubrication's. If the manufacturer recommends?

I have a link to a variety of interesting Omega documents you want to get at least number 40 it's on lubrication

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=working

then in case you're curious yes if you had Swatch group access which you don't worry Omega's lurking with the technical documentation there are way more these than just what cousins house but at least we do get the lubrication one

so we see Omega's current recommendation of variety lubricants all synthetic of course we don't even have the 8200 mainspring grease because they don't use it. notice it must be kept in a dark place because lights not good for oil and it has a maximum temperature so no putting the models on the sunny shelf just because a look pretty there.

So even without the oil manufacturers recommendation because are all synthetics the recommending six years **BLEEP** bottle. Really important thing they recommend keep the lid closed on the oil is you don't want to get dust in it and then they recommend weekly changing. On the other hand they have really deep pockets and they can replace the oil faster than every seven years but it does give you a hint that even the watch companies not necessarily using huge quantities if they're telling you you keep your oil for 60 smears another a severe bigger bottle at last forever. Which strangely enough is what I found out home I just wasn't going through it that fast although I didn't always change the oil of the cups every week either but you can do things at home you wouldn't do if you are taking money in the shop

then the rest the guy has techniques unfortunately are missing the working instruction which has cleaning and then there's another one that talks about epilam all missing. Also notice the corners of this document every single page has been watermarked something appears to paranoid over where documentation comes from which is why anyone who is Swatch group access is never going to give us their documentation because it will tell the world where it came from which might be bad for people that have accounts with Swatch group.

 

8 hours ago, Paul80 said:

How many of you discard their bottles of rocking horse tears at or near the expiration date ?

yes about this? You did read the working instruction up above every seven years toss all your oils what could that possibly cost you? Suppose you're like me your lecture he discovered that oh dear you should change your oils from time to time. So in my case I have local material houses I can just go downtown walk in and say I have money I need lubrication. Once Debbie decided that I probably wasn't totally insane she started selling me various lubricants. Now it's not just a hobbyist who complains about the cost of oil everybody does. Even the people that own the shop were bringing in money to pay for this still complain about the cost of oil.

From memory I blew $200 that day and I was still missing a couple of bottles of stuff unfortunately the HP oil did not come in little tiny bottles so I ended up with bigger bottles and they ran about $100 each so now I'm up to $400 oil

so at that point in time I formulated a theory for John and the theory goes like this at home there my personal watches. Typically if the lubrication breaks down you're going to see a performance issue it will show up on the timing machine. This is not 100% true so if you follow this recommendation follows so at your own risk. In other words if the oils spread like 90 $10 as we can see an disappear and your pivots are no longer lubricated or very common on automatic watches metal on metal bearings if you don't lubricate your watch the lubrication does anything undesirable other than getting gummy and sticky like just disappearing you may grinder watch into a ball of dust and I don't want to hear about it

so my current theory for John is that synthetic oils originally advertised would last for ever and that the oils that I have should last forever especially at the rate I'm going through my home is a consequence I'm never going to replace the oils at home. I would like to add one to it at work I've become quite fond of 9504 versus the grease of choice at home that I liked for all these years which was PML stem grease that runs about $20 to really nice stuff versus fortunately at work I didn't have to buy it I just asked for it and it showed up

so I think unless you're doing watches for money you doing your own personal stuff be keeping an eye on things because you have a timing machine if you see a performance decrease you should definitely be concerned. Your visually looking at your watches like is at 9010 that everybody but John is using yes I use 9020. But you see the oil gone out of the balance pivots you can make a choice you want to service your watch are not

another minor problem that happens to people that collect watches are you manned up with having too many watches so why do you want to go back and read lubricate the watch was seven years ago when you have all sorts of other fun exciting new things to service

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[canthus]

If anybody's interested I did a long speil on this forum about lubricants. Below is the link to the start of the topic.  Follow the comments through as my inputs are in the comments.  FYI I spent many years as lubrication applications engineer covering many industries.

http://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/638-lubricants-basics/

 

[Kalanag]

On 6/28/2022 at 7:10 AM, Kalanag said:

Epilame does it!

A tiny drop of (bluish) Moebius 9010 in the epilamed plastic cup:

The same drop 15 hours later:

Two days later the Moebius 9010 is still in place with no significant evaporation or spreading! As John mentioned this oil spreads easily on untreated surfaces and requires the use of epilame (here: Dr.Tillwich Antispread).

Edited June 29, 2022 by Kalanag