Loose pallet jewel

[RichardHarris123]

Working on a watch with a loose pallet jewel. Do I need shellac or is there a modern alternative  

[Paul80]

Hi.

From what I have read it seems that shellac is still the go to product, not sure why nothing new has come along for use in modern manufacturing, perhaps because watchmaking is still done using the same old equipment. 

I would have thought some of the modern adhesives and resins would do the job just fine, maybe one of the UV setting resins world be a good choice for a test.

[RichardHarris123]

On 5/17/2022 at 11:34 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

I have one of the cheap blue ones about a tenner or so. It does work although im not quite sure how well. A couple of my dumont second hand tweezers keep getting magnetised all the time.

 

11 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Can we not just add a video taken on a phone  as it is ?

 

8 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

Hi.

From what I have read it seems that shellac is still the go to product, not sure why nothing new has come along for use in modern manufacturing, perhaps because watchmaking is still done using the same old equipment. 

I would have thought some of the modern adhesives and resins would do the job just fine, maybe one of the UV setting resins world be a good choice for a test.

I'd of thought so too. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Working on a watch with a loose pallet jewel. Do I need shellac or is there a modern alternative  

Hi Rich. One  reason shellac is used is because fixtures can be reset over and over by applying heat.  How come its loose rich, cleaned in ipa ?

Edited May 21, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[RichardHarris123]

15 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hi Rich. One  reason shellac is used is because fixtures can be reset over and over by applying heat.  How come its loose rich, cleaned in ipa ?

No, I've just dismantled the movement.  When I removed the balance, the wheel train started spinning.  Inspected under the microscope and one jewel was at about 45⁰.

[HectorLooi]

Is the watch a Mumbai Special? 

So far every watch I got from India or Pakistan has missing shellac. I think it's the cleaning fluid that they use.

Reshallacing is not too difficult. Mark has a video showing how it's done.

[RichardHarris123]

35 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Is the watch a Mumbai Special? 

So far every watch I got from India or Pakistan has missing shellac. I think it's the cleaning fluid that they use.

Reshallacing is not too difficult. Mark has a video showing how it's done.

No not from Mumbai.  Nameless pocket watch movement, no dial etc  using it for practice.  I'm getting to know good from bad, decent quality. It will be an idea piece to practice reshellacing on.

I still don't understand why modern adhesives aren't used though. 

1 minute ago, RichardHarris123 said:

No not from Mumbai.  Nameless pocket watch movement, no dial etc  using it for practice.  I'm getting to know good from bad, decent quality. It will be an idea piece to practice reshellacing on.

I still don't understand why modern adhesives aren't used though. 

The movement is filthy, plenty of dried oil but swimming in wet oil under the crown and ratchet wheels. 

[HectorLooi]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I still don't understand why modern adhesives aren't used though. 

Actually they do use UV glue. My mentor has been using it for years. He says Chinese watch manufacturers use it too.

I am going to try UV nail varnish the next time I need to reshellac a jewel. It can be removed by soaking it in acetone.

[RichardHarris123]

1 minute ago, HectorLooi said:

Actually they do use UV glue. My mentor has been using it for years. He says Chinese watch manufacturers use it too.

I am going to try UV nail varnish the next time I need to reshellac a jewel. It can be removed by soaking it in acetone.

Thanks, I'm experimenting so no worries if ut doesn't work. 

[JohnR725]

On 5/21/2022 at 5:20 PM, RichardHarris123 said:

Thanks, I'm experimenting so no worries if ut doesn't work. 

 

On 5/21/2022 at 1:40 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

One  reason shellac is used is because fixtures can be reset over and over by applying heat.

If you can put the jewel in and set the proper depth and have no intention of ever moving it ever again you can use just about anything. But shellac still works good still is available. It's used in woodworking for a finish so it is available as an expensive way to buy it for the woodworking store verses from watch supply store.

But it still has a advantage over everything else in that if you have to move that stone again all you have to do is carefully warm it up and you can move your stone around. Which typically on escapement's you may have to do.

But if you're an assembly line or you can get it perfect the first time then you can use whatever you feel like.

[RichardHarris123]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

 

If you can put the jewel in and set the proper depth and have no intention of ever moving it ever again you can use just about anything. But shellac still works good still is available. It's used in woodworking for a finish so it is available as an expensive way to buy it for the woodworking store verses from watch supply store.

But it still has a advantage over everything else in that if you have to move that stone again all you have to do is carefully warm it up and you can move your stone around. Which typically on escapement's you may have to do.

But if you're an assembly line or you can get it perfect the first time then you can use whatever you feel like.

Thanks I know why shellac is still used now. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

18 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Thanks I know why shellac is still used now. 

You can buy shellac flakes as cheap as anything Rich. I did use nail varnish once after i accidentally dissolved some shellac in alcohol. It did work but the stone hadnt actually moved. If it had i would have definitely gone with shellac and i did buy some just in case. Tbh i think traditional watch making ways are still used becaused they have always worked. Same as in most trade practices, if it works well then why change it. I'm thinking your obstacle will be getting the stone back in the right position. Not something I've had to do yet, and not particularly looking forward to it. I think its about time i just had a go on something scrap. Tell us how it goes matey

[RichardHarris123]

4 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

You can buy shellac flakes as cheap as anything Rich. I did use nail varnish once after i accidentally dissolved some shellac in alcohol. It did work but the stone hadnt actually moved. If it had i would have definitely gone with shellac and i did buy some just in case. Tbh i think traditional watch making ways are still used becaused they have always worked. Same as in most trade practices, if it works well then why change it. I'm thinking your obstacle will be getting the stone back in the right position. Not something I've had to do yet, and not particularly looking forward to it. I think its about time i just had a go on something scrap. Tell us how it goes matey

I pushed it in without fixing as a temporary measure.  The escape wheel wouldn't move, I realised that the loose jewel was too far out and would release. Pushed it in and working.  I haven't got round to fixing it in place yet but I'll let you know. 

Just now, RichardHarris123 said:

I pushed it in without fixing as a temporary measure.  The escape wheel wouldn't move, I realised that the loose jewel was too far out and would release. Pushed it in and working.  I haven't got round to fixing it in place yet but I'll let you know. 

I'm still a complete novice at this. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I pushed it in without fixing as a temporary measure.  The escape wheel wouldn't move, I realised that the loose jewel was too far out and would release. Pushed it in and working.  I haven't got round to fixing it in place yet but I'll let you know. 

I'm still a complete novice at this. 

Everyone here is learning all the time Rich. You, re not afraid to have a go, I admire that in people, and you've taught me things mate same as others have. 

[clockboy]

These are good if you can find one. Shellac is also the best because it is re position able. 
 

[RichardHarris123]

14 minutes ago, clockboy said:

These are good if you can find one. Shellac is also the best because it is re position able. 
 

Yes, I understand why it is used now. 

[Paul80]

Getting back to using shellac, there is another application method, which does not use heat and stingy bits of shellac.

Just disolve the shellac in Ethanol (Meths in the UK) to make up a thick solution.  Then apply the thick solution with an old oiler. One small blob works its way around the jewel. Then just set it aside to harden, usually over night.

Obviously not as quick as the traditional method but much easier to do for a beginner.

I have used this method and can confirm it does work.

[RichardHarris123]

3 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

Getting back to using shellac, there is another application method, which does not use heat and stingy bits of shellac.

Just disolve the shellac in Ethanol (Meths in the UK) to make up a thick solution.  Then apply the thick solution with an old oiler. One small blob works its way around the jewel. Then just set it aside to harden, usually over night.

Obviously not as quick as the traditional method but much easier to do for a beginner.

I have used this method and can confirm it does work.

Thanks, I'll give it a go. 

[clockboy]

1 hour ago, Paul80 said:

Getting back to using shellac, there is another application method, which does not use heat and stingy bits of shellac.

Just disolve the shellac in Ethanol (Meths in the UK) to make up a thick solution.  Then apply the thick solution with an old oiler. One small blob works its way around the jewel. Then just set it aside to harden, usually over night.

Obviously not as quick as the traditional method but much easier to do for a beginner.

I have used this method and can confirm it does work.

Never tried it but will give it a go.  I presume it’s still moveable with heat if needed.

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, Paul80 said:

Just disolve the shellac in Ethanol (Meths in the UK) to make up a thick solution.  Then apply the thick solution with an old oiler. One small blob works its way around the jewel. Then just set it aside to harden, usually over night.

Obviously not as quick as the traditional method but much easier to do for a beginner.

Yes the glue method works quite nicely and it gives the option of later on heating it up if you have to move things around. Like on a pallet stone where it's placement is extremely critical you may have to move it at some point in time.

[RichardHarris123]

7 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Yes the glue method works quite nicely and it gives the option of later on heating it up if you have to move things around. Like on a pallet stone where it's placement is extremely critical you may have to move it at some point in time.

I'm learning so much.

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, Paul80 said:

Getting back to using shellac, there is another application method, which does not use heat and stingy bits of shellac.

Just disolve the shellac in Ethanol (Meths in the UK) to make up a thick solution.  Then apply the thick solution with an old oiler. One small blob works its way around the jewel. Then just set it aside to harden, usually over night.

Obviously not as quick as the traditional method but much easier to do for a beginner.

I have used this method and can confirm it does work.

Did you do any touching up of french polish around the house with any that was left ?

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I'm learning so much.

It's good that you're learning that will make up for me forgetting. I was trying to remember how we did this at school and it took me a little while because it was quite a while ago I learned this. You can put the pallet stones in use the glue method and a electric heater slowly warm it up so the shellac doesn't bubble if I remember right and then it's perfectly applied now you can play with moving to stones around. Then of course it be really nice to have one of those extremely expensive heaters and the fancy adjusting tool I think both of them together will run you about $1000 although occasionally the escapement meter shows up on eBay but not very often.