Balance cock

[RichardHarris123]

Just got a new pocket watch movement.  I haven't had time do do much yet but it seems intact.  One of the hands was stuck under the balance.  I removed it.  When the balance cock is screwed down the balance is loose, the pivots look OK. Can the balance cock be shimmed?

[watchweasol]

Hi  The balance cock can be shimmed bt its usually for a different reason , there is no end shake, and to increase the end shake you shim the balance cock. If when the cock is screwed down and its still sloppy it points to a, broken or worn pivots  b. the wrong staff fitted, c, the balance cock is warped. Its a matter of sorting through the options.                                                

[RichardHarris123]

4 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  The balance cock can be shimmed bt its usually for a different reason , there is no end shake, and to increase the end shake you shim the balance cock. If when the cock is screwed down and its still sloppy it points to a, broken or worn pivots  b. the wrong staff fitted, c, the balance cock is warped. Its a matter of sorting through the options.                                                

Thanks, I'll go through the options when I get chance. What is end shake  

[Nucejoe]

 Shim if placed on the outer bound  of where  the cock mounts will lower the setting and vice versa raises if placed on the inner bound ( raises the setting) . some argue that it will tilt the cock therefore tilits the setting , jewels and the cap jewel. while true you might lose only a few degrees of amplitude or grind a  bevel wear on the pivot end.

Needless to say shimming both the inner and outer bounds will raise the entire cock. 

 End shake is the  axial free play of balance staff when balance is installed and cock screws tightened. 

Regds

Can we see a picture of the setting on balance cock and mainplate? as it might let you adjust for end shake by moving the setting. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  The balance cock can be shimmed bt its usually for a different reason , there is no end shake, and to increase the end shake you shim the balance cock. If when the cock is screwed down and its still sloppy it points to a, broken or worn pivots  b. the wrong staff fitted, c, the balance cock is warped. Its a matter of sorting through the options.                                                

Hi ww. This question is a little relavant.  Can I ask what would be your opinion of raising  a dot on the mainplate under the balance cock as an alternative to shimming ? Thanks

Edited April 27, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Nucejoe]

5 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hi ww. This question is a little relavant.  Can I ask what would be your opinion of raising  a dot on the mainplate under the balance cock as an alternative to shimming ? Thanks

 Many frown upon gouging as it destroys the mainplate or cock. Moving the setting is prefered and if thats not possible then shimming.

Both  ofcourse are only worth considering when you are sure lack of end shake is not due to short pivot. 

Ain't that right Weasol.

[Neverenoughwatches]

55 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 Many frown upon gouging as it destroys the mainplate or cock. Moving the setting is prefered and if thats not possible then shimming.

Both  ofcourse are only worth considering when you are sure lack of end shake is not due to short pivot. 

Ain't that right Weasol.

Thanks Nucejoe.  What material for shimming? Jd uses watchpaper 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Nucejoe]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thanks Nucejoe.  What material for shimming? Jd uses watchpaper 

Thin aluminum foil. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Thin aluminum foil. 

Thanks. I am a bit confused as to why the lack of endshake can happen. Surely any wear on pivots would increase the endshake but more so sideshake . The only reason I can think of is inward movement of the jewels in their seating, which I would have thought not particularly  common as regards to lack of train endshake unless caused by a jolt of the watch. So would lack of endshake be caused by material compression of mainplate and bridges or maybe have been there from start of manufacture and always been problematic since it was made.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Nucejoe]

  You have mentioned most possibilities I can think of for lack of end shake, staff might have been replaced with a longer one or bent cock, well how else would you native speakers  say the last one. 

Just between the two of us, sometimes I force raise the bridge instead of shimming. 

You see a screw for bridge height adjustment  on some Rolex calibers, which tells me Rolex deems the need for such adjustment as inevitable.

Regs

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

  You have mentioned most possibilities I can think of for lack of end shake, staff might have been replaced with a longer one or bent cock, well how else would you native speakers  say the last one. 

Just between the two of us, sometimes I force raise the bridge instead of shimming. 

You see a screw for bridge height adjustment  on some Rolex calibers, which tells me Rolex deems the need for such adjustment as inevitable.

Regs

 

Thanks for the reply . Much appreciated.  Yeah I would say it pretty much the same way . At 55 I'm starting to think I have the same problem as my end shakeless watch.

[watchweasol]

Hi    To me the use of shims is preferable to mauling the plate or the cock. Reason being the aplication of a shim can Raise the cock by fractions of a mm in parallel whereas gouging etc is a little less accurate and once done iis far harder to remove.

One has also to take into account as to why shimming ar gougeing was done in the first place. I think Joes comment regarding a changed staff being the most likley.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

Hi    To me the use of shims is preferable to mauling the plate or the cock. Reason being the aplication of a shim can Raise the cock by fractions of a mm in parallel whereas gouging etc is a little less accurate and once done iis far harder to remove.

One has also to take into account as to why shimming ar gougeing was done in the first place. I think Joes comment regarding a changed staff being the most likley.

I have 2 raketa that both have brass shims from the factory. 1 had one shim the other had 2 shims. I'm struggling  with a Swiss  movement  at the moment that has loads of issues one of them being low amp caused by having  very little end shake, I did solve that by gouging although I was a little ashamed of using that practice .but almost doubled the amp in doing so. Now trying to solve stopage when in dial up position.

 

 

[Nucejoe]

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I have 2 raketa that both have brass shims from the factory. 1 had one shim the other had 2 shims. I'm struggling  with a Swiss  movement  at the moment that has loads of issues one of them being low amp caused by having  very little end shake, I did solve that by gouging although I was a little ashamed of using that practice .but almost doubled the amp in doing so. Now trying to solve stopage when in dial up position.

 

 

 Usually this is due to worn pivot, short pivot on the cock side lets pivot shoulder touch the jewel hole and stops the watch. 

If incabloc,  the cap jewel is dome shape, flip the end stone over so the domed side faces the pivot, the do e will compensate for the shortness of the pivot.  

You should then give the cap jewel an epilame treatment so oil stays on top of the dome. 

Works but might be frowned upon like gouging. 

I swear it does work. ha ha

[JohnR725]

18 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Just got a new pocket watch movement.

I don't suppose we can have a picture because that's a pretty broad description.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

 Usually this is due to worn pivot, short pivot on the cock side lets pivot shoulder touch the jewel hole and stops the watch. 

If incabloc,  the cap jewel is dome shape, flip the end stone over so the domed side faces the pivot, the do e will compensate for the shortness of the pivot.  

You should then give the cap jewel an epilame treatment so oil stays on top of the dome. 

Works but might be frowned upon like gouging. 

I swear it does work. ha ha

I think I pinpointed it a couple of days ago, a worn third wheel pivot on the bridge side. I now have an excuse to try my new lathe and attempt a re pivot. Wont that will be fun . . I like the cap jewel flip tip, but now I have to buy epilame. I hate spending money haha. Cheers 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Nucejoe]

It will run for couple of years without epilame.

[RichardHarris123]

With the balance removed, pallets snapping back and forth as should do, so power being transferred.  With the balance in, pallets move if swung but don't even try to move by themselves. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

With the balance removed, pallets snapping back and forth as should do, so power being transferred.  With the balance in, pallets move if swung but don't even try to move by themselves. 

Not quite sure what you mean Rich. Try the balance in without the pallet . Check end shake on the balance. 

Just now, Neverenoughwatches said:

Not quite sure what you mean Rich. Try the balance in without the pallet . Check end shake on the balance. 

With the balance in and pallet . Use a puffer to start the balance up. Tell me what is happening.  You may have the impulse jewel on thevwrong side of the pallet fork.

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Not quite sure what you mean Rich. Try the balance in without the pallet . Check end shake on the balance. 

With the balance in and pallet . Use a puffer to start the balance up. Tell me what is happening.  You may have the impulse jewel on thevwrong side of the pallet fork.

Attach a vid mate so we can see what is happening