Timing a hairspring to a balance wheel

[bobolink]

I watched some videos of timing a balance wheel to a hairspring using an old Luthy tool.

Can anyone advise on how to do this without a Luthy ?  I’ve read some timing documents and came away still unclear. 
 

Thank you in advance. 

[Nucejoe]

  Providing a compatible and long enough hairspring, attach the stud and build your balance complete, instal in the watch and try regulating on TG, you will face one of the following cases.

1- Oscilator runs fast with regulator arm closest to beat adjustor. Weigth needs to be added to the balance, which is impossible on anular balance. 

2- Oscilator is regulable. proceed with regulating.

3-Oscilator runs slow with regulator arm farthest from the beat adjustor. Spring's length is to be shortened so you free to make an educated guess as to whereabouts to repin the springs stud, check the rate on tg to decide which direction you shoild inch towards to the right pining point. 

Do not cut the spring until you find the pining point. 

Mention was once made of the caspari effect by member praezis, which I do near the collet. 

Your further questions are welcomed.

 

 

[bobolink]

6 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

  Providing a compatible and long enough hairspring, attach the stud and build your balance complete, instal in the watch and try regulating on TG, you will face one of the following cases.

1- Oscilator runs fast with regulator arm closest to beat adjustor. Weigth needs to be added to the balance, which is impossible on anular balance. 

2- Oscilator is regulable. proceed with regulating.

3-Oscilator runs slow with regulator arm farthest from the beat adjustor. Spring's length is to be shortened so you free to make an educated guess as to whereabouts to repin the springs stud, check the rate on tg to decide which direction you shoild inch towards to the right pining point. 

Do not cut the spring until you find the pining point. 

Mention was once made of the caspari effect by member praezis, which I do near the collet. 

Your further questions are welcomed.

 

 

Thanks you confirmed that I will need a TG which is ok with me.  I do recall that I read somewhere of doing this timing using another pocket watch?  Does that make sense?

Thanks

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, bobolink said:

Thanks you confirmed that I will need a TG which is ok with me.  I do recall that I read somewhere of doing this timing using another pocket watch?  Does that make sense?

Thanks

There is a free and easy to use app on the net called WATCH ACCURACY METER  to upload on your smart phone, it will do until you decide on buying a tg. 

You need a colleted spring of right or close   CGS No    to start with.

Please keep us posted, we'd work with you during the entire process.

Rgds  Joe

 

 

[nickelsilver]

I have vibrated springs using a stopwatch when I didn't have the correct master balance for the Luthy tool (those wonderful LeCoultres with 20,222  or 20,944 beats per hour haha). Just count every other beat and do the math over 30 seconds and you will be close. The pain is how to hold the spring if you don't have the tool. Just holding it in your tweezers will get you in the ballpark, even though the micro movements of your hand will have an influence. You will probably be close enough to do as Joe says above, get it in the watch with some extra spring out the stud and adjust from there.

[praezis]

Quote

Spring's length is to be shortened so you free to make an educated guess as to whereabouts to repin the springs stud,

Its is possible to calculate the length difference from ratio of is-swing period to wanted-swing period and total length of the spring (with factor 1/2 or was it x2?).

Observing the Caspari effect would be very useful, but using a hairspring w/ collet, you have to accept what you will get.

Frank

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, bobolink said:

I watched some videos of timing a balance wheel to a hairspring using an old Luthy tool.

Can anyone advise on how to do this without a Luthy ?  I’ve read some timing documents and came away still unclear. 

Are you talking about brand-new Raw hairspring or matching an existing hairspring to a different balance wheel? The reason I ask is the procedures are different

6 hours ago, bobolink said:

Thanks you confirmed that I will need a TG which is ok with me.  I do recall that I read somewhere of doing this timing using another pocket watch?  Does that make sense?

I hope you have deep pockets? Standard watch timing machines have limits like the Chinese machines will only go to 999 seconds which seems like a lot until your vibrating hairspring. Witschi has additional features at about 10 times the cost of the Chinese machine. For instance frequency mode will tell you exactly how many beats per hour your watches running. So if you had your new balance wheel hairspring combination running watch the witschi machine would tell you how far you are away from whatever frequency are aiming for. Otherwise you go with the clock timing machine they typically measure beats per hour.

Then there's another option which is the Microset timing machine as it has a hairspring attachment for vibrating hairsprings.

https://www.bmumford.com/mset/

3 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I have vibrated springs using a stopwatch when I didn't have the correct master balance for the Luthy tool (those wonderful LeCoultres with 20,222  or 20,944 beats per hour haha). Just count every other beat and do the math over 30 seconds and you will be close. The pain is how to hold the spring if you don't have the tool. Just holding it in your tweezers will get you in the ballpark, even though the micro movements of your hand will have an influence. You will probably be close enough to do as Joe says above, get it in the watch with some extra spring out the stud and adjust from there.

Then if you're only doing one hairspring this would be the easiest procedure to follow

 

[bobolink]

On 4/22/2022 at 11:44 AM, Nucejoe said:

There is a free and easy to use app on the net called WATCH ACCURACY METER  to upload on your smart phone, it will do until you decide on buying a tg. 

You need a colleted spring of right or close   CGS No    to start with.

Please keep us posted, we'd work with you during the entire process.

Rgds  Joe

 

 

Thanks!....I am starting to understand the situation.  I do have the original hairspring.  I have several colleted hairsprings (collets do fit the pinion) I can try.  The watch is just a very scarce item (Bronheur visible works) without any "for parts equivalents" I can find.  One hairspring I have is of the same thickness and height but is much longer than would likely fit.  I am probably going to just try it, follow your advise and see what the outcome is with either the Iphone app or I may go for a TG.

PS: You can see in the photo that I also need to address the broken adjustment pointer.

[Nucejoe]

 I can't see if the original hairspring is broken, in case it isn't, lets see what its coil looks like,  your prefered option can very well be to sort out the original. If broken and is short by only a few mm, you can adjust it by adding weight to the balance screws. 

Unfortunately a hairspring's strength is not easily decernable by looks or dimentions.

Regds

 

 

 

[bobolink]

8 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 I can't see if the original hairspring is broken, in case it isn't, lets see what its coil looks like,  your prefered option can very well be to sort out the original. If broken and is short by only a few mm, you can adjust it by adding weight to the balance screws. 

Unfortunately a hairspring's strength is not easily decernable by looks or dimentions.

Regds

 

 

 

The original hairspring basically fell apart when removed.  It was badly rusted.  As was the regulator pointer that also acts to hold the cap jewel.   Water had entered this area at some time. 

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, bobolink said:

The original hairspring basically fell apart when removed.  It was badly rusted.  As was the regulator pointer that also acts to hold the cap jewel.   Water had entered this area at some time. 

I was really hoping you were going to say it was tangled up a little bit. Getting replacements going to be challenging as Nucejoe Indicated you can find identical looking hairsprings but they won't be exactly identical.. But sounds like you have no other choice.

Then if they hairspring is this badly disintegrated how bad is the rest of the watch?.

[bobolink]

5 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I was really hoping you were going to say it was tangled up a little bit. Getting replacements going to be challenging as Nucejoe Indicated you can find identical looking hairsprings but they won't be exactly identical.. But sounds like you have no other choice.

Then if they hairspring is this badly disintegrated how bad is the rest of the watch?.

That’s the weird thing. The jewels look good under magnification as do the pinion.  The mainspring was broken but was able to find a good new replacement.  Everything else was good, no rust.  Just the hairsp and adjuster were rusted away. Can’t figure it. It was my grandfathers watch.