Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted

I have put the barrel and gear train back together and fitted the ratchet wheel and click. What I immediately notice is that there is play in the ratchet wheel which can tip side to side. I suspect that when power is wound into the spring it will force the barrel to tip which will presumably put pressure on the centre wheel pinion? 

Posted

I have removed the play from the barrel bridge, but the barrel itself still has a lot of play. I think because the lid doesn't fit/click into place the barrel itself can pivot on the arbor even though the arbour is running true.

The barrel is 2mm in height and 10.6mm external diam with the barrel wheel being 11.8mm diam. What are the chances of tracking down a replacement?

Posted
4 hours ago, LeCorbusier said:

What I am hoping is that if I can sort out the play in the barrel bridge so the arbor runs true, I can get the barrel set in such a way that it doesn't move on the arbor and so will deliver the power. Presently the barrel has a lot of movement.

I was going to use my staking set to gently close the pivot hole in the bridge and then re-open using a smoothing broach to hopefully sort the arbor. I have to admit I wasn't expecting this issue with the barrel. 

Before you close the (enlarged?) hole for the barrel arbor, it might be best if you take a picture of the mainplate, and barrel bridge for us all to take a look at first. When there’s wear on the mainplate barrel pivot, the hole can be oval so it might be difficult to broach it to the correct location accurately.

Best practice would be to replace the worn hole in the mainplate with a bushing or a jewel, but you need to find a way to accurately determine where the center of the pivot to be. More experienced members on this board should be able to tell you how to do that, but it might require some equipment and more practice first.

3 hours ago, LeCorbusier said:

Question .... relating to the barrel. Is the barrel lid a friction fit onto the arbor, or should it spin freely in the lid pivot hole? On my Barrel the arbour is a tight fit and the lid spins with the arbor.

The barrel lid should fit tightly onto the barrel drum, but the barrel arbor should be able to spin freely in the empty barrel. When the watch is running, the barrel arbor is stationary, and the unwinding of the mainspring in the barrel causes the entire barrel drum to rotate. When the watch is wound by stem, the barrel drum is still rotating slowly as before, but the barrel arbor is being rotated via action of the stem to coil up (wind up) the mainspring. As you can see, the barrel arbor and the barrel drum move independently so they should have minimal friction.

  • Thanks 1
Posted
13 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

The barrel lid should fit tightly onto the barrel drum, but the barrel arbor should be able to spin freely in the empty barrel. When the watch is running, the barrel arbor is stationary, and the unwinding of the mainspring in the barrel causes the entire barrel drum to rotate. When the watch is wound by stem, the barrel drum is still rotating slowly as before, but the barrel arbor is being rotated via action of the stem to coil up (wind up) the mainspring. As you can see, the barrel arbor and the barrel drum move independently so they should have minimal friction.

Oh dear. The lid falls out of the Barrel  when its in the movement.. it seems to be getting worse. When I dismantled last time it was sitting on the main plate. When the barrel is in place with the barrel bridge fitted, the barrel will move with a rocking motion whilst the arbor has little to no movement in the bridge.

Barrel bridge

IMG_0380.thumb.jpg.d7618bd297707eba896dba2e00c49ca4.jpg

Close up of pivot hole

IMG_0381.thumb.jpg.dd0aa45ad0edf4cf8d6508aefc0985d4.jpg

 

Underside of pivot hole

IMG_0382.thumb.jpg.1c95786bd5f32a2bf0c81dbac079b696.jpg

 

Main Plate pivot hole

IMG_0383.thumb.jpg.26b0423064b2dfd34d8e662b671d9717.jpg

 

Barrel arbor

IMG_0384.thumb.jpg.0c55e4d0fdefa108405ba0faf810957c.jpgIMG_0385.thumb.jpg.152407be111d1b01ba59b9cbf43679cc.jpg

Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, LeCorbusier said:

Question .... relating to the barrel. Is the barrel lid a friction fit onto the arbor, or should it spin freely in the lid pivot hole? On my Barrel the arbour is a tight fit and the lid spins with the th

The arbor shouldn't  be a tight fit to the lid. Sounds like the lid is wrong 

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, LeCorbusier said:

Oh dear. The lid falls out of the Barrel  when its in the movement.. it seems to be getting worse. When I dismantled last time it was sitting on the main plate. When the barrel is in place with the barrel bridge fitted, the barrel will move with a rocking motion whilst the arbor has little to no movement in the bridge.

Barrel bridge

IMG_0380.thumb.jpg.d7618bd297707eba896dba2e00c49ca4.jpg

Close up of pivot hole

IMG_0381.thumb.jpg.dd0aa45ad0edf4cf8d6508aefc0985d4.jpg

 

Underside of pivot hole

IMG_0382.thumb.jpg.1c95786bd5f32a2bf0c81dbac079b696.jpg

 

Main Plate pivot hole

IMG_0383.thumb.jpg.26b0423064b2dfd34d8e662b671d9717.jpg

 

Barrel arbor

IMG_0384.thumb.jpg.0c55e4d0fdefa108405ba0faf810957c.jpgIMG_0385.thumb.jpg.152407be111d1b01ba59b9cbf43679cc.jpg

The main plate hole looks well worn. The arbor has a lot of scoring as well . How does the arbor on its own look in the main-plate  ?You might want to rethink doing this yourself.

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
Posted

In the absence of more experienced observations, I am coming to the same conclusion re: the main plate hole. Looking at what is happening when the watch is assembled, I believe I am getting movement at the base allowing the arbor to tilt with the pressure of the spring. The movement at the barrel bridge doesn't appear too great but the barrel wheel is tilting a fair bit. 

Presumably the solution would be to fit a bushing ... which would also allow adjustment of the end shake which feels excessive.

I certainly can't make or fit a bushing. ☹️

Will need to consider options.

Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, LeCorbusier said:

In the absence of more experienced observations, I am coming to the same conclusion re: the main plate hole. Looking at what is happening when the watch is assembled, I believe I am getting movement at the base allowing the arbor to tilt with the pressure of the spring. The movement at the barrel bridge doesn't appear too great but the barrel wheel is tilting a fair bit. 

Presumably the solution would be to fit a bushing ... which would also allow adjustment of the end shake which feels excessive.

I certainly can't make or fit a bushing. ☹️

Will need to consider options.

Just trying the arbor in its main plate seating and observing it's play will tell you what you need to know. Bushings you can buy. Making the hole for it needs to be accurate  and in exactly  the right place. It is something I've been thinking of trying. I've seen a bushing tool on ebay a few times, no idea how it works or how well. John loves to get stuck into this sort of complex job also nickelsilver might help you. I think you will need some parts as well. An arbor a barrel lid, but you may be able to make the lid.

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
Posted

Are there any guides/instructions for bushing a barrel bridge/main plate. Is it possible without a lathe?

I have fitted brass bushing in the past in model engineering using a drill and broach and using the 'true' underside of the pivot hole to centre the position (where no oval ... ing  has occurred) - but this seems a whole other level of accuracy?

Is bushing the barrel pivot holes a run of the mill job for a pro or an involved exercise? - the movement itself doesn't appear to be anything special, but it has considerable sentimental value.

Posted

I have a mini woodworking lathe and am vaguely wondering if I can set this up for use with gravers? Might be worth an experiment on some scrap. 

Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, LeCorbusier said:

Are there any guides/instructions for bushing a barrel bridge/main plate. Is it possible without a lathe?

I have fitted brass bushing in the past in model engineering using a drill and broach and using the 'true' underside of the pivot hole to centre the position (where no oval ... ing  has occurred) - but this seems a whole other level of accuracy?

Is bushing the barrel pivot holes a run of the mill job for a pro or an involved exercise? - the movement itself doesn't appear to be anything special, but it has considerable sentimental value.

Im not sure what is involved with bushing, there's a few on here  that will know. Reach out to some of the experienced with a private message

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
  • Thanks 1
Posted
5 hours ago, LeCorbusier said:

I have a mini woodworking lathe and am vaguely wondering if I can set this up for use with gravers? Might be worth an experiment on some scrap. 

Yup experimentation is my middle name. Go for it.

  • Thanks 1
Posted
20 hours ago, LeCorbusier said:

Are there any guides/instructions for bushing a barrel bridge/main plate. Is it possible without a lathe?

I have fitted brass bushing in the past in model engineering using a drill and broach and using the 'true' underside of the pivot hole to centre the position (where no oval ... ing  has occurred) - but this seems a whole other level of accuracy?

Is bushing the barrel pivot holes a run of the mill job for a pro or an involved exercise? - the movement itself doesn't appear to be anything special, but it has considerable sentimental value.

 

I would not attempt a re-bushing or a rejewelling on a piece that has significant value to me. You will need a watchmaker's lathe, and sufficient experience before even thinking of attempting such a repair. To further complicate matters, your movement appears to be a ladies' size movement, which will make things tricky at the best of times.

Take a look at the tutorial posted on omegaforums for rebushing: https://omegaforums.net/threads/common-faults-omega-861-movement-barrel-bushing.123076/

Your best option would be to send this off to get someone professional to re-bush, or re-jewel, the mainplate and/or barrel bridge.

  • Like 2
Posted
3 hours ago, ifibrin said:

 

I would not attempt a re-bushing or a rejewelling on a piece that has significant value to me. You will need a watchmaker's lathe, and sufficient experience before even thinking of attempting such a repair. To further complicate matters, your movement appears to be a ladies' size movement, which will make things tricky at the best of times.

Take a look at the tutorial posted on omegaforums for rebushing: https://omegaforums.net/threads/common-faults-omega-861-movement-barrel-bushing.123076/

Your best option would be to send this off to get someone professional to re-bush, or re-jewel, the mainplate and/or barrel bridge.

Thanks for the caution and the link. I really appreciate the guidance and the steer 👍 

I will definitely not touch the movement at present .... and you may well be right that it will remain beyond my skill set - in which case I will try and find someone to help.

However, I am definitely going to acquire some bushings and have a go on a suitable thickness of material. That should put things to bed either way. If it goes anything near ok, it might be something to share and ask for advice and input - if not I can quietly bin the evidence and pretend I have more commonsense 😇

 

  • Like 1
Posted
3 minutes ago, LeCorbusier said:

Thanks for the caution and the link. I really appreciate the guidance and the steer 👍 

I will definitely not touch the movement at present .... and you may well be right that it will remain beyond my skill set - in which case I will try and find someone to help.

However, I am definitely going to acquire some bushings and have a go on a suitable thickness of material. That should put things to bed either way. If it goes anything near ok, it might be something to share and ask for advice and input - if not I can quietly bin the evidence and pretend I have more commonsense 😇

 

Fully agree with ifibrin mate. You will need at least a couple of years of fairly intensive practise and experience under your belt . By all means experiment, it's my favourite  thing to do and one of the best ways to learn imo. But not on something of value, I learnt that in the very beginning. I know and have worked with a lot of people in my industry that think something is an easy job without thinking it through. Only to come unstuck and have created a bigger problem. This is really only learnt I think when the reality of what they are actually capable of hits home and they become aware of what is possible and not possible at their level of experience  and skill. But you also need to sometimes  push yourself to another level, or will never come. Baby steps mate that's the way forward. The good ones on here will give you an indication of what is doable . Good luck. Keep practicing and keep experimenting. 👍

  • Thanks 1
  • 1 month later...
Posted

I have found a replacement movement which fits the watch case and matches the dial feet. Have yet to strip it down and clean/service it, but a preliminary inspection suggests its in better nick .

The question I have is .... it is missing the winding stem. Can anyone give any pointers on how I might go about finding a stem that will work?

The movement is a Swiss Parrenin with HP HN42 on the dial side.

 

back.jpg

face.jpg

Posted
16 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Cousins sell assorted stems.

Screenshot_20220531-183125_Chrome.jpg

I have these and unfortunately no joy. The markings on the face are HP (Parrenin?) then H2 then HN42.

Cousins have.....

stem.thumb.jpg.c77514c00036baf9efb6daa3b2bf285f.jpg

Would HP 40 be correct? .... or am I completely misreading things? 


  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • One of the problems with trying to Photograph Phils things are that his enjoyment was building these things so they tended to E falls on what will see if I can find some earlier pictures or any pictures I wasn't even sure because I was looking for that specific picture for somebody else and even it got the last version and that would have been the last version. You will note that he put the indexing on something that he could unscrew it or whatever and it can slide back out of the way so the rest of the lathe can be used as a lathe. With the lathe cut are actually coming down from the top I was there once where he demonstrated how to cut a pivot with the setup it was really beautiful. Older set up if I remember it's not a worm gear assembly in the thing in between the stepping motor and the holding block I believe this particular one was like a 100 to 1 gear ratio. Earlier version with watchmaker's lathe. Even looks like he is the watchmakers bed and then switch to something he made. Then I do have other pictures and things of the rotary stage in use. In the raw so if you tube videos here is an example of one were somebody's mounting a three jaw chuck. At one time there were available on eBay they were not cheap but if you're patient like I was I found one cheap on eBay. After you watch the video it look at his other videos he is a whole bunch of other examples of the same rotary stage. That I do know there are other pictures examples and possibly videos you just have to track them down. One of the minor issues of finding this particular tech sheet for the unit is I believe it was a custom manufacturer and the company change their name but I remember the new name here's a link to the company https://www.ondrivesus.com/rino-mechanical-components                
    • Escapement adjusting always interesting and depending upon the reference always confusing. Okay maybe it's not always confusing but it does lead to confusion. I have a PDF below it's actually a whole bunch of separate stuff including a hand out that came from a lecture that's on you tube. Then from that we get this image Consequences of doing things especially if you do things out of order or you do things for the wrong reason. Oh and even if the watches working I made the mistake one so showing my boss how tweaking the banking pins on a full plate on the timing machine made the amplitude get better and now he thinks that's what they're for and I don't think a fully grasped exactly what horn clearance means. Consequence of doing things. Notice what it says about opening and closing the banking pins and total lock? So yes I've had that on a full plate where it won't unlock at all and that's the banking pins or a combination of things basically. So banking pins unfortunately get moved. One of the ways to tell if it's been moved is the look straight down at the end of the fork with the balance wheel removed. Power on the fork push at the one side look at it push it to the other side also look at it and compare anything with the center reference the balance jewel and see if both sides of the same. No guarantee after the same there in the right place but at least are the same typically when people play with things one side will be way off from the other because they had no idea what they were doing at all because of course it's a full plate and you really have to paying attention and even then there's still hard to do. Then the other thing that comes up like it shows below is people often adjust the banking pins to do all those other things as opposed to horn clearance which is all that it's therefore and maybe bonus Guard pin clearance although you're supposed to deal with the guard pin is a separate thing like single roller gets bent in Or out or sometimes physically gets moved in and out. Some full plates older escapement's typically pallet forks held together with screws and you can actually unscrew and move the entire assembly in Or out more complications to deal with.     Escapement handout wostep nscc.pdf
    • If he was much younger and some sort of sports player it wouldn't be a problem. They would be in there and doing surgery and he'd be back on the field in no time. Unfortunately when you get older little things are bad and big things can be really bad so not good at all.
    • Where I work everything incoming watches whatever detailed descriptions are taken entered into a computer program and photograph of each item. Then ideally although it depends on who's doing the paperwork detailed descriptions can be quite good other times there lacking. Like I really like it with pocket watches if they would record the serial number it avoids confusion later on. Then when watch repairs are completed that is also entered in. It's one of the amusements I learned when I was in school instructor had a shop and commented about the important aspect of keeping detailed records of repairs. Because oftentimes a customer who got a new crystal will come back later on when the watch doesn't work and expect you to fix the entire watch for free. Then you can remind them that they just got a crystal. Strangely enough that keeps coming up or occasionally comes up where I work now. One of the problems of using the service marks on the case is that in the case of pocket watches oftentimes that's not the original case. Then case marks? What I was doing warranty work for a company I used to describe a code number in the back of the case and it would tell me the next time I see the watch that basically what I did I made no attempt at keeping track of customers because we had literally thousands of them I think they sold 30,000 of these watches and they would come back by the hundreds because they had a lifetime warranty. Yes that's a story all of itself but I would put a code number that would reference what was done to the watch the last time and think I had a date in there somehow so it did tell a story if you knew the code. Another shop I once worked out the number would reference the page in the book. So other than knowing we had been in there you would have no idea what happened because you have to go look at the page in the book to see what happened. Then the problem of how you examine a watch you should examine the watch in detail every single time to avoid complications. Although on vintage watches and this is a of amusement I have at work when people ask something and I say of the watches done when it leaves. This is because on vintage oftentimes problems won't show up until the watches much farther into the repair like it's now running and you discover things that you can't discover before because it wasn't running to discover them that also become sometimes difficult to have exact rigid prices are estimates of repairs or in the case of a pocket watch you may not find out if a casing problem to later on when you case it up in the watches running. I was just thinking for all those people that would like to leave a mark maybe you should learn to do what some of the past watchmakers did? Leave a mark but leave it in such a way that no one will ever find it? Typically not done for repair purposes but done for other reasons like identifying it's legit. I have a friend with a Gruen watch and one of the Roman numbers the bottom line that just looks like a line under extreme magnification actually says Gruen watch company or something equivalent. So here's a link showing how to mark your watch without being seen although that's not the actual title. So if you can learn micro engraving you can engrave the watch someplace probably just about any place you just have to remember where you put it. https://cnaluxury.channelnewsasia.com/obsessions/how-to-prove-if-watches-are-authentic-secret-signatures-182516  
    • I have acquired a Citizen Leopard 36000 watch. My reason for purchasing it was my desire to own a timepiece with a 36,000 BPH movement, and the price was reasonable. Another motivating factor was gaining hands-on experience with the mechanism. The watch is in good condition, but I intend to fully disassemble it for maintenance. First and foremost, if anyone has prior experience with this particular model, I would greatly appreciate their insights. I do not have access to Citizen’s specialized lubricants and will need to use the ones available to me, such as 9010, 8000, and 8300 grease. Additionally, I do not possess the appropriate oil for the pallet jewels and will only be able to clean them.
×
×
  • Create New...