Need a new balance staff for a Waltham pocket watch, which model number do I need?

[GregG]

Hello, I am trying to figure out what balance staff I need for this Waltham pocket watch.

 

Serial # 14390428

Grade: No. 1

Manufacturer:Waltham

Manufacturer Location:Waltham, Massachusetts

Model:1883

Estimated Production Year:1905

Run Quantity:7,500

Total Production:1,056,920

Size:18s

Jewels:7j

Movement Configuration:Openface

Movement Finish:Gilt

Movement Setting:Pendant

Plate:Full Plate

Regulator:Plain

Hairspring:Breguet

Adjusted:No

Railroad Grade:No

Data Research:1954 Waltham "Gray Book" List

Database Version:v46.990

 

My research has led me to either balance staff 1364, or 1365 (https://www.ofrei.com/page327.html) which were both compatible with the model year 1883 movement.  But I am not sure which one to use.  How can I confirm this?  The only significant difference between the two seems to be the waist size, which isn't listed.

[jdrichard]

Measure the diameters of the old staff and compare

[Nucejoe]

Further to Jdrichards advice, heres a diagram of all important dimensions of a staff to be measured.

 

Good luck

[Nucejoe]

2 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Further to Jdrichards advice, heres a diagram of all important dimensions of a staff to be measured.

 

Good luck

Big waste small waiste. So you need to measure the waiste to see which one you need.

[GregG]

1.65mm.  My calipers barely fit in there, so I'm not 100% sure which portion of it I was measuring.

But the listing on Ofrei doesn't have the waists, so I'm still not sure which one I need.

However, I did find a listing here: https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/waltham-1364-vs-1365-balance-staff.8582/post-58412 where someone said that the 1365 is 1.68mm so I'm guessing that's it.

[Nucejoe]

Have you searched balancestaff.com?   lists bunch of waltham staffs and gives all dimensions.

[GregG]

Looks like they only give the dimensions along the length of the staff, not the widths.

[JohnR725]

12 hours ago, jdrichard said:

Measure the diameters of the old staff and compare

Normally that's the beginning of a good plan. Always measure the old then measure the replacement. Also verify that whatever you think you're ordering correspondence to whatever you think you've measured. But not for this staff apparently? Because any of the references I have appear to be almost exactly identical. Or basically I can't tell which staff except?

9 hours ago, GregG said:

1365 is 1.68mm

To explain the problem I snipped out a variety of images including the answer to your question. One of the images shows the standard measurement locations of a balance staff if you're looking for staff.

Then taxed out of another reference showing the measurements commenting that there is a difference in size but visually by the numbers they appear to be identical. Although you will note as is usual with American pocket watch staffs there are pivots size variations.

Then the answer to the question. One of the books I have is a cross reference of staff sizes give you have a size you can find the staff. In the back of the book is reference material from various watch companies. Then in the very back somebody measured some of the balance staffs. On that image we find a measurement it's not standard and we also find the number   1.68 then the other one is 1.94. Or basically both staffs are identical and it really shouldn't matter which one you use.

Then if you really pay attention to the drawing you'll see minor variations in size? From another discussion group in reference to this book it was suggested that the numbers are always accurate. But there's also the problem of the American watch companies changed or sometimes changed things. So basically the numbers are really really close. Which is why from time to time staffs may or may not exactly fit. Plus I suspect sometimes companies manufacturing replacement staffs may or may not of exactly follow the size scheme of the particular staff. I have a suspicion some staffs were deliberately made large so you can reduce them in size to fit. But that's just the speculation on my part.

[jdrichard]

These staffs were made so the watchmaker could replace them without having to do any cuts...this was a simple repair by replace activity.  My advice stands...measure the old staff and pick the one that exactly fits.  I have been down that road and screwed this up.

[GregG]

Thank you John, what book are you referencing to get that information?  Also, I figured instead of buying a replacement staff for $20+shipping, and then paying my watchmaker an arm and a leg to replace it, it would probably be easier just to buy the balance complete for a little more.

It would appear from your drawings that the 1365 is the correct staff.  Another post on the same NAWCC forum (https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/waltham-1364-vs-1365-balance-staff.8582/post-1127945) said that the 1364 had straight spokes while the 1365 had tapered spokes.

My balance has straight spokes which would imply 1364, but the measurements imply 1365.

A guy on eBay is selling both versions (see pictures).  The tapered spokes one he lists as "WALTHAM POCKETWATCH 18 SIZE BALANCE COMPLETE #SR83."  The straight spokes he lists as "WALTHAM 18 SIZE POCKET WATCH BALANCE COMPLETE , SINGLE ROLLER  1883 WITH BREGUET HAIRSPRING , #1384."

Some conflicting information overall, but that begs the question, does it matter which one I buy?  The total lengths only differ by 0.01mm.  And I'm assuming the balance/staff/hairspring are all tuned to eachother, rather than to the balance bridge.

Edited November 11, 2021 by GregG

[JohnC]

Instead of paying your watchmaker $200, why not just buy a staking tool and a staff remover and attempt it? It's really not that bad a repair, especially if you're competent enough to change the balance anyway.

Re. those two examples above, note that one is Breguet and the other is not. Hairsprings cannot be transferred so you need to buy the correct type. In any case he doesn't list the staff type so you would have to message him and see if he will check.

I think 1365 is the more common of the two '83 staffs but you should still measure to be sure...

Also it's not just the length that is important. The divisions (horizontal distances between components) have to be correct. For example here the distance from bottom pivot to roller seat differs by 0.03, not 0.01, which raises the risk the fork won't engage properly.

[GregG]

43 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Instead of paying your watchmaker $200, why not just buy a staking tool and a staff remover and attempt it? It's really not that bad a repair, especially if you're competent enough to change the balance anyway.

Re. those two examples above, note that one is Breguet and the other is not. Hairsprings cannot be transferred so you need to buy the correct type. In any case he doesn't list the staff type so you would have to message him and see if he will check.

I think 1365 is the more common of the two '83 staffs but you should still measure to be sure...

Also it's not just the length that is important. The divisions (horizontal distances between components) have to be correct. For example here the distance from bottom pivot to roller seat differs by 0.03, not 0.01, which raises the risk the fork won't engage properly.

Hi John, my only hesitation with that is that I typically work on older watches, where NOS parts are not necessarily the easiest to come by, which would limit the usefulness of a staking set and not justify the cost.  Granted there are vintage sets you can get under $200, but I typically only buy watches that have good balances to begin with.  This one was a fluke, if I had known it had a broken balance I wouldn't have bought it.  Not opposed to the idea though.

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, GregG said:

Hi John, my only hesitation with that is that I typically work on older watches, where NOS parts are not necessarily the easiest to come by, which would limit the usefulness of a staking set and not justify the cost.  Granted there are vintage sets you can get under $200, but I typically only buy watches that have good balances to begin with. 

It was nice that you did clarify because as long as you're happy with your balance staff and have zero intention of ever changing it then is taking set is probably of no use to you. But if you work on vintage pocket watches you do tend to run into broken staffs. Or if you work on modern watches I know of people work on Rolex watches and they change staffs all day long just because they have to be perfect for timing requirements. So apparently they never change a staff because it's broken only for timing Reasons.

8 hours ago, GregG said:

Thank you John, what book are you referencing to get that information?  Also, I figured instead of buying a replacement staff for $20+shipping, and then paying my watchmaker an arm and a leg to replace it, it would probably be easier just to buy the balance complete for a little more.

Seems like on a watch repair discussion group you wouldn't be paying a watchmaker you would learn how to do it yourself?

So here's the problem on American pocket watches or basically anything vintage. They were not mass-produced even though they were. As a rather confusing sentence isn't it? Basically the escapement's are all adjusted to the particular components in the watch. Like American pocket watches all the bridge parts are serial numbered you can't take a bridge from one watch and put it on another because the serial numbers don't match and probably needed to the holes. If you swap a complete balance wheel your pivots sizes may not be the same in other words you could need to be too loose or too tight somebody will have to adjust that. Possibly because the escapement's are all adjusted somebody will have to adjust the escapement. But if you're doing a vintage watch that is standard operating procedure and that shouldn't be an issue. Which is usually why always recommend trying to keep as many of the original components as you can for your vintage watch

Here are two other references I have first one somebody selling it on eBay which is nice. This is obscure book that most people I don't even think new that even existed. The second book I got it as a PDF off of eBay but it doesn't seem to be there anymore probably because people PDF thing copyrighted material get in trouble. So I'm giving you a reference to the Amazon where you can see its actual book is probably out there someplace. This is the one where I found the measurements because what they did is they went through and measured a huge assortment of staffs and arrange the book by sizes. Then in the back they have the various reference material including the drawings.

Swartchild's American Balance Staffs

https://www.ebay.com/itm/162769575312

American Watch Balance Staff Interchangeability

https://www.amazon.com/American-pocket-wrist-balance-interchangeability/dp/0913902527

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KarlvonKoln]

14 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Swartchild's American Balance Staffs

https://www.ebay.com/itm/162769575312

American Watch Balance Staff Interchangeability

https://www.amazon.com/American-pocket-wrist-balance-interchangeability/dp/0913902527

 

Thank you thank you thank you @JohnR725 for posting this!  I'm getting those! 
John is right: the more work you do on antique and vintage watches, the more broken balance staffs you will see.  I believe that may be the most common issue (outside of being filthy) that these old timepieces have.  If you continue on this path, a good staking set will help a lot.  A broken balance staff, a cracked jewel bearing, a broken mainspring - those are the things we see the most.  A good staking set and a good mainspring winder both become necessary if you spend a lot of time at this sort of thing.  If you typically work on vintage or antiques, these tools will pay for themselves in time.  And if you deal with mostly antique American pocket watches, or vintage ETA Eterna, or Fontainmelon, or HB, you'll soon find there are many sources for staffs.  And a replacement staff is cheap.

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, KarlvonKoln said:

cracked jewel bearing,

A couple of notes regarding cracked jewels? As long as it's a hairline crack that doesn't seem to be really noticeable on the bearing surface in other words is more like an internal fracture flaw then it's acceptable and leave it alone. A lot of people use to modern perfect jewels freak out at natural stones and their internal flaws. The problem is you can't replace all the jewels in the watch even though I've seen this come up on discussion groups. Balance jewels that's different usually have a staff breaks you want to look very carefully at those nice tiny round hole becomes usually not round and lots of sharp edges.

The other reason I bring up to jewels are there's another book that's even harder to find which is the Swartchild's American Balance Jewel book. So I just list all the different sizes of the jewels used.

Another really nice pocket watch references this Swigart American Watch Movements

I see it's available at Amazon at a really interesting price. I'm giving you the link just because it's so humorous and I see they have used copies at equally humorous prices

https://www.amazon.com/Illustrated-Manual-American-Watch-Movements/dp/B001MCD7FU

Here's another source at a much more reasonable price

https://www.jewelerssupplies.com/illustrated-manual-of-american-watch-movements-620.020.html

Here's somebody online that will sell you a PDF I haven't looked on eBay lately but usually somebody on eBay is selling it as a PDF. Then the reason you're not finding it available free using the assumption that all PDFs are free no notice there's at copyright disclaimer on this page.

http://www.watchmakingbooks.com/ebooks---pdf-formatted-books.php#!/Swigart-Illustrated-Manual-of-American-Watch-Movements-PDF-eBook/p/19103713

Then the best place looks like right now eBay. Then as typically on eBay you are look at all the prices some were interesting not as interesting as the Amazon price. Somebody even has an auction love three of the physical books you really don't need 31 will do. Then even have an electronic version which I put at the link below with some bonus stuff on their disc

https://www.ebay.com/itm/274922294031