FHF / ST history

[ElioBD13]

Hi all! 

The mother of my fiance asked me to repair a little old watch belonged to her sister since around 1965.

It is a little 20mm Mondaine, with a manual winding movement.

The movement has a mark on the dial side "ST 69". It is a 17 jewels swiss made movement. I did some research and I found a very similar movement from FHF, called 69N.

Both movements are practically identical but for the balance end stones: ST69 does not have the incabloc system on the balance.

Do anyone know if the movement I have is from FHF but their did not marking it? Or does the "ST" stand for another company? Were them the same company?

I leave you some images

Edited August 20, 2021 by ElioBD13
Add a photo

[jdm]

9 hours ago, ElioBD13 said:

Do anyone know if the movement I have is from FHF but their did not marking it? Or does the "ST" stand for another company? Were them the same company?

ST = Standard, the name suggest generic in nature, could have been a separate logo andcompany but in the end made identical mov.ts as FHF, AS, and others but never an unique one. Maybe they were owned by the same people, or sold, or acquired, or produced on contract. That happened all the time in the Swiss industry and still does, for fiscal and market reason.

[ElioBD13]

Ok, thanks.

So if I get it right ST isn't a brand. The brand should be FHF as the movements are practically the same.

So I can suppose that, even if the balance doesn't have the incabloc system, parts from a FHF 69N will fit.

Thanks a lot @jdm!

[Nucejoe]

They are two seperate brands but made many exact same calibers marked ST or FHF or ST-FHF.

Find answers to many of your questions in Dr ranfft and Julesborel sites.

 

 

[jdm]

2 hours ago, ElioBD13 said:

So I can suppose that, even if the balance doesn't have the incabloc system, parts from a FHF 69N will fit.

Other parts yes, but due to the different pivot profiles one can't mix plain and anti-shock balance parts.

What was, and is still used, to greatly resume parts commonality is the Bestfit catalogue. Search for it on this website, courtesy of oldhippie.

[jdm]

6 minutes ago, jdm said:

Other parts yes, but due to the different pivot profiles one can't mix plain and anti-shock balance parts.

What was, and is still used, to quickly resume parts commonality is the Bestfit catalogue. Search for it on this website, courtesy of oldhippie.

 

[ElioBD13]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

They are two seperate brands but made many exact same calibers marked ST or FHF or ST-FHF.

Find answers to many of your questions in Dr ranfft and Julesborel sites.

 

 

I'll definitely check for their sites!

1 hour ago, jdm said:

Other parts yes, but due to the different pivot profiles one can't mix plain and anti-shock balance parts.

Very good advice, I didn't know that.

1 hour ago, jdm said:

What was, and is still used, to greatly resume parts commonality is the Bestfit catalogue. Search for it on this website, courtesy of oldhippie.

I will! Thanks JDM, and thanks @oldhippy

[Nucejoe]

 Both ST &  FHF came with no shock and incab as well as other shock systems. 

Dr ranfft shows a FHF69 with elstor spring I beleve.

Just go to ranfft's site to see FHF69, thats a pretty darn good spring on fhf69.

ST mainly made elabore grade ( I think) with incab, which powered many brands.

You would be concerned with shock system when replacing the balance complete or the jewel setting. The one in the watch is very likely to be the right one for it.Only end stones in your watch differ.

 

 

 

[fmarton]

Hello there,

I have just run into the exact same issue about "incompatible" shocks across FHF 69N.

I have a watch in repair with this caliber, it is my mom's watch, a very young one. I mean the watch.

It's in a Doxa from the 90s. (I was very much surprised that I have found this caliber in a Doxa, I thought there should be a doxa caliber inside. Maybe its a cheapo doxa. )

So in this watch the shock springs are not incabloc, but some other type, it's called Novodiac if I'm not mistaken.

When I lost the bottom end stone and pivot hole , (Am I right if I call the dial side "bottom"? Actually it should be top, as it is in the top almost any time, except when serviced and opened upside down. ) I just ordered a replacement movement, was thinking I just need to replace them, easy work.

Then I was surprised, that the replacement movement had the incabloc-type shock springs and different size of jewels.

So I realized that no matter if it is the same movement, the balance shock jewels and springs are different.

I tried to use the replacement balance assembly with its jewels, but on the dial side, the seating is different, so the pivot hole and the endstone height is also different, and the balance does not oscillate. I think the end stone pushes the pivot when the spring is attached.

So the problem is, no matter how many "for parts or repair" movement I see online, all of them looks like fitted with the inca system, and not novodiac.

And also, unfortunately the sizes close to what I have measured on the novodiac jewels are not available on cousins or boley.

So for now - unless any of you had a brilliant idea that I as a beginner cannot think of - it looks like I have just ruined my mom's watch that was working perfectly, just needed a service after like 30 years.

But hey, lesson learnt! Since then I have the special tool for novodiac springs, 4 more spare springs for this watch and 2 movements, so once I could buy stones for this novodiac shock, this watch will have all the spare parts for the next 100 years...

This is the Novodiac shock, fitted with incorrect jewels.

[Nucejoe]

 So many brands were powered by ST69 manufacturers simply ordered the shock system of their choice.

I think your watch is genuine ,  more pix please just to make sure.

Removing shock spring in a plastic bag, keeps the spring on earth.

A strong magnet has  a good chance of finding the spring.

Rgds

Edited January 21 by Nucejoe

[fmarton]

Yes, the plastic bag and rodico the two most invaluable tool I learnt the hard way to use.

Thank you for your explanation!

Here are some more pix.