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FHF 28 all over the place on timegrapher

chadman

By chadman
in Watch Repairs Help & Advice

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chadman Member

chadman

Posted
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"A good man always knows his limitations..."  -Dirty Harry

I've met mine.  I have a Herodia wristwatch, ca 1950's.  Was not running when I bought it.  I replaced a broken set lever spring with NOS I bought.  The watch was dirty but nothing exceptional.  I cleaned with rubbing alcohol, pegging out, etc, and dipped all parts with jewels in one dip, balance complete included.  I removed the hole and cap jewel of the balance and cleaned them as well.  I lubricated the center and 3rd wheel with D5, and the 4th and escape wheel with 9010.  I tried to place a smidge of 9014 on one-third of the exit pallet stone.  The movement was de-magnetized prior to timing with the Weishi 1000. 

I did notice the hairspring was sticking and after inspection I concluded my one-dip was contaminated from other watches so I let the balance sit in new solution, and that visually freed the hairspring.  I also noted that the terminal curve isn't perfect but it's not kinked or what I would consider (in my next to no experience) to be too bad.  Have to look closely to see it. 

The mainspring I removed and it is set.  It also has the end of the spring broken off, the end which rests along the inner barrel wall, not the hook to arbor.  I put it back in and it's in there now.  The train moves freely and everything looks clean and good.  The pallet "snapped" to its other position when gently pushed so I think it's ok.  The hairspring:  It doesn't "breath" or flex evenly.  It flexes as it should about 190 degrees from the stud.  The rest flexes too but not as much the closer to the stud it is.  The spring doesn't flex at all along the terminal curve, just minutely moves from the movement of the spring between the boot and pin.  The spring flexes so it is hitting both boot and pin, not sliding contact-free between them.

This is all to describe the conditions the best I can.  Here's what's happening on the timegrapher with a wound spring after about 24 hours post cleaning:

Crown up:  + 2 to -35 spd.   134 amplitude.  0.2 ms beat error.

Crown down:  -19 to -58 spd.  201 amp.  1ms beat error.

Dial up:  +20 to +51 spd.  179 amp.  0.6 ms.

Dial down:  +18 to +35 spd.  174 amp.  0.1ms.

These aren't static numbers, they represent the numbers from low to high, with more variations early in testing (the first 20 secs or so it fluctuates more)  I gathered this information after about a minute on the timegrapher.  I did re-oil the jewels on the balance after taking out of the one dip btw.  I used 9010 on the balance jewels.  No lube for the pallet except the exit stone.

Will the broken end of the mainspring contribute to wildly fluctuating readings?  I'm thinking this has to be an escapement problem but I'm at a loss as to troubleshoot this.  Any suggestions appreciated.  Thanks!

rodabod Distinguished Member

rodabod

Posted
Posted

I wouldn't worry too much about the lubrication at the moment. Sometime you just won't get a good action if the hairspring is out-of-true. You can imitate having little more torque from the mainspring by applying pressure to the edge of the barrel or centre wheel while noting the effects on your timegrapher. That may help to indicate if the hairspring is too-far-gone, in which case you may want to consider whether it's worth getting a new mainspring or not.

  • Like 1
JohnR725 Distinguished Member

JohnR725

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, chadman said:

The mainspring I removed and it is set.  It also has the end of the spring broken off, the end which rests along the inner barrel wall, not the hook to arbor.  I put it back in and it's in there now. 

set mainspring is definitely a problem if you want the watch to run any length of time. Then missing the end that means you can't wind it up all the way means you basically have no power probably the reason your amplitude totally sucks you really need to get a better mainspring.

I don't suppose you can give us a picture of the timing machine results? numbers are nice but seeing a picture the graphical images even better.

4 hours ago, chadman said:

I tried to place a smidge of 9014 on one-third of the exit pallet stone

interesting choice of oil? Then you oiled one third of one pallet stone only? In other words one little tiny drop on one stone and that was it?

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Nucejoe Distinguished Member

Nucejoe

Posted
Posted

How good does the watch look, it might be worth spending money on. 

Are you set up to show us magnified pix of the hairspring? 

Meanwhile applying pressure to the edge of the barrel as Rodabod says wont cost you money, it really should be a standard test all watch repairman should master.

 

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chadman Member

chadman

Posted
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Posted

Thanks for the helpful information and suggestions.  I'll try putting pressure on the barrel while testing it. 

I love how the dial looks.  The case, not so much.  The chrome plate hasn't aged well and the gold colored metal looks pitted under the chrome.  I don't think it's brass as it's too light, maybe something else.  I can sort that out later. 

Yes to the oiling of the pallet stone; that's what and all I used.

Pics:  I only have a phone and not sure how to post pics but I'll look that up and post some if I figure that out.  Pics of the hairspring and timegrapher results if I can.

I'll try the barrel pressure first, and then try to source a mainspring as well as looking into a hairspring if I need to.  Affixing it to the collet isn't something I've done yet but I'm willing to try.

Nucejoe Distinguished Member

Nucejoe

Posted
Posted

 A true watch repairman never throws any damaged parts away. So whilst you might end up buying a NOS balance complete, you will later on acquire the skil to repair this balance complete. Practice on scraps.

Balance completes fhf 282 and fhf284 will interchange with fhf28.

I try to buy two or more of same calibers ( scrap or runing)  which often helps me save quite a bit on buying spare parts. 

 

 

 

JohnR725 Distinguished Member

JohnR725

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, chadman said:

Yes to the oiling of the pallet stone; that's what and all I used.

SYNT-A-LUBE 9014 is an interesting choice for escapement lubrication as it's not what any of us are doing but I guess if that's what you have you could have just saved yourself some money and use the 9010 as they're basically equivalent. One of the reasons I asked for a photograph and how much lubricants you using is if we can see the picture of the graphical display in other words are the lines nice and smooth in parallel or they moving around a little bit which really helpful if we could see that. But if you're just putting a super tiny quantity on one stone that is not enough lubrication for the entire escapement your under lubricating and that should be visible on the graphical display which is why a photograph would be nice.

4 hours ago, chadman said:

Pics:  I only have a phone

strange enough even flip phones have cameras now but getting a pictures out earphone unless it's a smart phone I agree could be an issue but it really would be helpful if we had a picture of the graphical display as it means without it were missing diagnostic information.

4 hours ago, chadman said:

then try to source a mainspring

it's amazing how much difference a functional mainspring can make for watch as it's the source of the power.

4 hours ago, chadman said:

hairspring if I need to.  Affixing it to the collet isn't something I've done yet but I'm willing to try

I really wouldn't worry about the hairspring it's normally not considered a replaceable components it would be a balance completes if that is the problem. It comes back to getting pictures again.

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