Washers between roller seat and table

[JohnC]

Hi all. I need some input on an 1883 Waltham 18s I am working on. I found these washers under the roller seat after I removed the roller table. At first I thought I had a friction staff, but this staff was riveted (indeed, the 1883 model predates friction staffs). They are indeed washers, and came off the staff quite easily. I don't know if these are factory, or if someone replaced the roller with an incorrect one at some point, and needed to adjust the fit. Thoughts are appreciated. Picture attached. Many thanks.

[JohnR725]

It is reasons like this as a guess as to why the Swiss don't want to sell American watchmakers parts. That's because we are so creative with problem solving.

We would need the dimensions of the staff but I suspect it's not a roller problem but a staff problem.

[JohnC]

OK it's supposedly a 1365 staff but I still have to take measurements. I have a 1365 coming so I'll be able to size them up. Thanks John.

[JohnC]

I see some gouges in the staff from fitting the roller. Makes me think the roller was too small and they just added the washers in the gap.

[JohnR725]

I have a guess as to what's going on? I'm attaching the staff sizes below you'll notice that just below the staff your ordering is something that's almost identical except the hub size and it's a Tiny bit too long. So I suppose you could creatively make up for the hub size by using washers. The easy way to tell is just measure the hub and see what size yours is.

[JohnC]

@JohnR725 awesome thanks, will check and get back.

Glad you posted this as it also confirms for me that this staff comes in 3 pivot sizes. That is a little stressful to me as all I know is I've got a 1365 staff coming. Both existing pivots are broken so measurement is not an option. Good odds I'm going to have to order all 3 and find the right size by process of elimination.

Edited April 21, 2021 by JohnC

[jdrichard]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Hi all. I need some input on an 1883 Waltham 18s I am working on. I found these washers under the roller seat after I removed the roller table. At first I thought I had a friction staff, but this staff was riveted (indeed, the 1883 model predates friction staffs). They are indeed washers, and came off the staff quite easily. I don't know if these are factory, or if someone replaced the roller with an incorrect one at some point, and needed to adjust the fit. Thoughts are appreciated. Picture attached. Many thanks.

Out of the box thinking by someone who could not get a proper staff.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

That is a little stressful to me as all I know is I've got a 1365 staff coming.

Is the problem with American balance staffs. People used to Swiss watches sometimes typically one staff. Unless there were variations because of the balance protection system perhaps. But with American staff specially Elgin there can be variations with the same part number as you've noted the pivots size almost always varies with almost all the staffs there's a few that are only one pivots size but almost all of them different pivots sizes. Then if it's a modern replacement staff like typically bestfit its typically over size so you can reduce it to fit.

This means the minimum you have to do is measure the old measure the new and verify their the same? Except it also need to verify that the original fits within the specifications of whatever staff you think is supposed to be there. Hopefully there were no other modifications made to your watch.

[JohnC]

@JohnR725I measure the height of the hub at 0.96mm, which is within a small margin of 1mm as quoted. The overall length with 2 broken pivots I measured at approx. 5.4mm. Adding 0.3 for each pivot brings us quite close to the 6mm quoted for the 1703. And yes, comparing my staff to pics of the 1703 on eBay, looks the same. I think you nailed it!

Will have to get the 1365 and test the lean in the jewels to figure out if it will work. Might take a while to get this baby running. Fortunately all jewels appear OK and the train is in good shape.

Edited April 21, 2021 by JohnC

[JohnC]

[I can only assume I need a size 12 pivot because that's the only overlap between those two staffs - but we shall see.]

[JohnC]

@JohnR725
lucked out, new staff measures 12 and is a good fit in the jewel holes. Thanks again for your help.

[JohnC]

@JohnR725
looks like I need to open the roller hole, which appears to have been closed to fit the previous wrong staff. Pic attached. I think light broaching but want your opinion. Thanks.

Edited April 24, 2021 by JohnC

[JohnR725]

somewhere in my journey of learning watch repair I learned a rule. Never modify the watch to fit the replacement components. Always modify the component.

I think I might've said or I usually do point out that some staffs have been deliberately made oversize. This allows the watchmaker to reduce the size of the staff. Or I guess you can mutilate the roller table. So yes a very very light broach and maybe even a smoothing broach. Just because we don't know how much has been closed and you don't want to end up with it too big. Maybe a little from each side perhaps.

 

[JohnC]

Yeah I have been repeating that mantra to myself. A good lesson here. Okay thanks I think I'll try a smoothing broach.