Please help identifying this movement

[Yasser]

Dear friends,

I hope someone can help me identify this movement below (see photos).   I thought it was a BFG movement but on closer inspection, I noticed the letters ‘FB’ on the plate but unfortunately no calibre number.    The mainspring is broken inside the barrel and would like to get a replacement if I can find the calibre number.

Many Thanks,

Regards,

Yasser.

[watchweasol]

Hi Would have been better posting the complete movement, members may be able to Identify it from the setting lever spring shape and the keyless works as a string of bits its hard work.  Its a pin lever movement.

[Nucejoe]

Perhaps an Ebosa, can even be a baumgartner or langendorf.

Find us a trademark engraved on it some place, ebosa's mark is real small.

 

[Yasser]

Hi Joe,

It just has FB inscribed/engraved on one the plates.  Very small.   I can’t see anything else engraved.

 

[Yasser]

10 minutes ago, Yasser said:

Hi Joe,

It just has FB inscribed/engraved on one the plates.  Very small.   I can’t see anything else engraved.

 

 

[Nucejoe]

Yes I did notice FB in your original post.

At this point you might just go by measuring the spring itself.

[watchweasol]

I think Joe is right , as is just measure the spring  length - thickness - height and barrel diameter and look it up on cousins site for a GR spring  once assembled  a picture of the keyless work may lead to identification for you      thanks.

[watchweasol]

One other point  Identification can be checked via the bestfit books of which there was a download link posted by Old Hippy some months ago They are to big to send as pdf's but find able via the search option on the top right of the screen,  worthwile finding them and downloading a copy.      cheers

[Yasser]

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

One other point  Identification can be checked via the bestfit books of which there was a download link posted by Old Hippy some months ago They are to big to send as pdf's but find able via the search option on the top right of the screen,  worthwile finding them and downloading a copy.      cheers

Sorry but would you have the link.  I tried the search but can’t seem to find it.    What shall I search for?

[watchweasol]

https://www58.zippyshare.com/v/BGNuxKTX/file.html      https://www105.zippyshare.com/v/xrUeOPSy/file.html

Give these a try  they were posted by Old Hippy.  If they dont work search for bestfit catalogues.       cheers

[watchweasol]

https://www.mediafire.com/file/mz809lm3bms8zk3/bestfit_part1.pdf/file              https://www.mediafire.com/file/mz809lm3bms8zk3/bestfit_part1.pdf/file

If the others fail try these  password is TICKANDTOCK          again an old hippy post on media fire.

[Yasser]

How many parts are there?   I got the 1st part.   Do you have the 2nd parts and any other?

 

[Yasser]

Hi,

Looking at the Bestfits catalogue, it seems it is a LAPANOUSE movement. Which one, it’s hard to say as atleast 2 of them are very similar on Pages 155 and 156.       The Ligne size is 13’’’ -13.5’’’ when measured on my movement.  Upper plate and bottom plate sizes have a 0.5 ligne difference.    The catalogue has some 13’’’ ligne listed but the parts don’t match.   However,  the two which do match are ligne sizes 10.5 and 12 respectively.

I guess as Joe and yourself suggested and to move this forward, it’s easier to measure the mainspring’s H x W x L and then see what’s available on Cousins.

Thanks for all your help guys.

Regards,

Yasser.

 

[watchweasol]

https://www.mediafire.com/file/eqbhdor949r0ilp/bestfit_part2.pdf/file                          Book ll      I sent two copies of book l    apologies.

[Yasser]

Hi Guys,

I have taken out the mainspring and here are the measurements with some additional comments:

1.  H x W x L  (in mm)

1.5 x 0.1 x 567 (please see note about the length.)

The 567mm was the total length of the two broken parts of the mainspring.  I rechecked and noticed that 6mm was folded over at the end which goes against the barrel wall.  Please see photo.

So, is it correct to assume that actual total length would be 567mm + 6mm = 573mm?    If so,  I need to find one which is approx between 570mm - 575mm.  Please advise.

2.  Please see the other photos.    The mainspring end which goes on the Barrel Arbor is I believe a TR type?  Can you please confirm for me? 

3.  The diameter of the barrel itself is 16.6mm.

4.  I checked Cousins in the GR section but they do not seem to have anything which matches the length PLUS the TR type.    Any other websites you can recommend?

Regards,

Yasser.

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Yasser

[KOwatch]

Is that the inner diameter of the barrel? That's the number you want. Regardless, it's a very wide barrel with a very long mainspring for that width and thickness, from what I've seen available. The bridles are standard.

The closest spring that I think would fit on cousins is

1.50 x .105 x 480 x 11.5 Non-Automatic

GR4143

It's a lot shorter than yours but there isn't really anything of that length in that size. If you're worried about the upsize on strength/thickness you could try

1.50 x .10 x 360 x 10 Non-Automatic

GR4125

but that's even shorter. The shorter length shouldn't be too much of a problem, just less reserve. At this stage, I don't think total hours of reserve is your biggest concern.

You might try looking on ebay or other places for NOS springs, you might try with your bestfit number of 611 but you'll want a high letter (length), the highest I could find was 611P, which is 343mm. Not sure what letter 567mm is, X is 495mm, so ZZZ maybe?

 

[Yasser]

55 minutes ago, KOwatch said:

Is that the inner diameter of the barrel? That's the number you want. Regardless, it's a very wide barrel with a very long mainspring for that width and thickness, from what I've seen available. The bridles are standard.

The closest spring that I think would fit on cousins is

1.50 x .105 x 480 x 11.5 Non-Automatic

GR4143

It's a lot shorter than yours but there isn't really anything of that length in that size. If you're worried about the upsize on strength/thickness you could try

1.50 x .10 x 360 x 10 Non-Automatic

GR4125

but that's even shorter. The shorter length shouldn't be too much of a problem, just less reserve. At this stage, I don't think total hours of reserve is your biggest concern.

You might try looking on ebay or other places for NOS springs, you might try with your bestfit number of 611 but you'll want a high letter (length), the highest I could find was 611P, which is 343mm. Not sure what letter 567mm is, X is 495mm, so ZZZ maybe?

 

Hi KOwatch,

Thanks for the help.  The internal diameter of the barrel is 15.5mm.    Sorry I am new to watchmaking as a hobbyist - about 6 months or so.    I have never replaced it serviced a barrel.  I guess now is the time.  Hence, learning the ropes.  

Yes, I saw those options on Cousins website.  However,  as you seen thatbrhe length is not long enough but yes it will work.   Secondly, the 0.105 may just rub inside with the top/bottom when the barrel is closed.  I will check the depth of the barrel to see how much free room there is. 

There are few on eBay but the prices are like £20 delivered and the dimensions are not even listed by the seller.   So I don’t think I’ll be buying a NOS (possibly a wrong one) from Spain or Italy.    

I was hoping someone with old stock and/or a donor movement would read this thread and let me know. :).     Let’s see.  Otherwise I will just keep an eye out.   

I wonder, with the correct tools if it is possible to cut a hole/notch and make a bridle as the longer broken mainspring part is 380mm.   Just a thought!

Regards,

Yasser.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Yasser

[KOwatch]

If I'm reading your measurements correctly,

.10 or .105mm is the thickness of the spring, so this number helps fill up the diameter of the barrel when multiplied by the number of coils of spring. It is the primary variable for the strength of the spring, leading to higher or lower amplitudes of the balance wheel.

The width of the spring (1.5mm), is the same as the inside height of the barrel (as you say: top/bottom, or depth), so if you increased this it could rub on the top/bottom of the barrel, but you don't need to since 1.5mm is available. You could decrease it to 1.4mm and not suffer too much trouble, just some extremely slight extra play in the barrel.

Yes, you can make your own notches and bridles from old springs, there's discussion of the techniques in any classic watch repair manual. However, if your mainspring has broken, it will absolutely break somewhere else, the metal of the spring is already known to be compromised.

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by KOwatch

[Yasser]

1 hour ago, KOwatch said:

If I'm reading your measurements correctly,

.10 or .105mm is the thickness of the spring, so this number helps fill up the diameter of the barrel when multiplied by the number of coils of spring. It is the primary variable for the strength of the spring, leading to higher or lower amplitudes of the balance wheel.

The width of the spring (1.5mm), is the same as the inside height of the barrel (as you say: top/bottom, or depth), so if you increased this it could rub on the top/bottom of the barrel, but you don't need to since 1.5mm is available. You could decrease it to 1.4mm and not suffer too much trouble, just some extremely slight extra play in the barrel.

Yes, you can make your own notches and bridles from old springs, there's discussion of the techniques in any classic watch repair manual. However, if your mainspring has broken, it will absolutely break somewhere else, the metal of the spring is already known to be compromised.

 

Thanks.  My apologies aa I wasn’t thinking straight.   So this means that as long as 1.5mm height is not exceeded, the thickness doesn’t really matter that much but the length will impact the reserve.   Hence, need to look for the longest length mainspring.

Regards,

Yasser.

[KOwatch]

If you put a 1.4mm or 1.45mm width mainspring in a 1.5mm barrel, it won't make much of a difference. Technically this reduces the cross-sectional area of the spring, so you would compensate with a slightly thicker mainspring to maintain the same strength. There's calculators available online if you want to plug in the numbers.

There's other factors to consider, but from your description and photos we don't have any info on the watch. It looks like a very basic unjeweled movement with a pin-lever escapement? potentially lots of friction there. On the other hand, it looks like an old steel mainspring, so the alloy replacement of the same measurements and thickness might have a different spring coefficient. Lots of variables there. I'd try getting a mainspring that fits and seeing if you can get it to run.

 

[guidovelasquez]

On 27/2/2021 at 7:09, Yasser said:

On 2/27/2021 at 7:09 AM, Yasser said:

I thought it was a BFG movement but on closer inspection, I noticed the letters ‘FB’

 

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&2&2uswk&Baumgartner_844

[KOwatch]

definitely looks like a Baumgartner! 844 seems to be missing that horseshoe shaped cutout in the main plate though.

@guidovelasquez has a very good implicit point here, that the mainspring you found in the barrel isn't necessarily the correct spring for that movement. The 844 is listed with a very different mainspring than the one you describe,  1.40 x 9.0 x 0.11 x 260mm (works out to 1.40 x .11 x 260 x 8 Non-Automatic GR3696 on Cousins) which is a lot more reasonable in length than what you had (but also thicker and narrower).

[Yasser]

Thanks everyone for the comments and help.     I will source a suitable replacement mainspring and it should be OK.

Regards.