Balance assembly advice wanted -

[kbp]

I am at a cross-road, there seems to be no 'best ' course of action - therfore, I need your perspectives...

I have two balance assemblies, both from old Langendorf Roco mechanisms.  One assembly has a staff with broken upper pivot.  Its hairspring coils appear to be crossed-over and there are few mild-looking bends, kinks (or possible a 'rat's nest by the time I try to remedy the situation).  The other balance assembly's spring I have already slaughtered but it has good pivots.  

WOULD 

[kbp]

Sorry, the above post was sent before intended...

Please, what would be better - should I remove the broken staff  and replace it with the good staff, or should I transfer the spring (when repaired) onto the assembly with the good pivots?  Seems there is much that could good wrong either way and more so when it comes to poising and beats and blah blah.

Thank you for your insights. 

[Rafael]

Asked a similar question a few days ago.

You'll need to replace the broken balance staff. Transferring the hairspring would technically work but would not provide an accurate watch at the end. Each hairspring is vibrated to a specific balance wheel.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Rafael

[Nucejoe]

I agree with rafael, replace the staff.

Is it a screw balance? otherwise I wouldn't worry about poising, not an old langendorf anyway.

Good luck.

[kbp]

Thanks for the responses...

I agree the staff with the broken pivot must to be replace.  And as pointed out, there will be needed, subsequent actions to put the balance assembly into proper working order (a tall order for a beginner) so that when mated with the overhauled watch mechanism the balance will function as intended.

Based on your individual experience as to whether the problems of mix-matching  - introducing new components into an existing balance assembly and the actions that would be needed to set the 'new assembly' in proper working order, which option would be preferred:  

a)  move the one (and only viable) balance spring from its current assembly(#1) to the other assembly(#2) with the good pivots.  

b) remove the staff with broken pivot from its assembly(#1) and replace it with the good staff from the #2 assembly.   

Is there any reason to prefer one option over the other?   Are the above two options equally problematic with identical ramifications?  Maybe the question is nonsense but with no experience on which to rely, I thought I'd ask. 

If I had only one movement to work with the answer would be straight forward - find another suitable staff and replace it.   Also, I am shocked at the poor craftsmanship of the two Rocos in my possession, however I do love timepieces, great and small.    

[JohnR725]

10 minutes ago, kbp said:

a)  move the one (and only viable) balance spring from its current assembly(#1) to the other assembly(#2) with the good pivots.  

b) remove the staff with broken pivot from its assembly(#1) and replace it with the good staff from the #2 assembly.   

I really think we need pictures because this is confusing.

The reason we need pictures is balance staffs will start with that. There usually riveted in place removing one and putting it on another one is innocuous impossible but almost probably impossible. If we knew exactly what this timepiece was maybe we can recommend a replacement balance staff which would be preferred. Now if this is a friction staff they are meant to be changed and then there'd be no problem.

Swapping hairsprings has been discussed before multiple of times but I will repeat it here. In order for watch to keep time especially if you think it's only keep time within seconds per day it has to be manufactured to extremely tight tolerances the problem is they're not. This meant every single hairspring is individually vibrated for that specific balance wheel. If you look at the parts list for this watch providing you give us a model number you will find that was no separate hairspring.

There are exceptions though. Watches with over coils for instance to get them exactly where there supposed to be often times they are free made. Then the balance wheel typically has a variety of screws they are adjusted so that the balance wheel now matches the hairspring. Where in modern manufacturing it's easier just to get the hairspring the match the balance wheel because they use automated machines and they can do it in seconds.

So if you swap your hairspring which I recommend trying trying it out what you have the lose but more than likely you're going to have a timing consequence. If you have timing screws of any kind you may have to adjust them.

Then pictures would be nice so we can see what things look like

[kbp]

Thank you J!

I will post tomorrow. 

[Nucejoe]

You would have a balance complete by transferring hairspring onto the good wheel, though the two may turn out incompatable, you haven't damaged anything and can easily get back to where you started.

You wouldn't risk incompatibilty by restaffing. The question is how good of a job would restaffing turn out. swapping staffs is not a common practice

I use to mutilate a wheel just to get its staff come loose unaffected. If you get the staff out undamaged, the rest is will be the conventional proceedure. 

I put my money on restaffing.

[Rafael]

Just to make sure we're not missing anything - did you try and source on ebay and the like a "balance complete"? This would be the easiest solution (although the more expensive one).

[kbp]

John asked about the timepiece:

It is a Langendorf Roco movement, Swiss-made, 15 jewels, 10 1/2 ligne, 2 adjustments. The mechanism is without complications, therefore basic and simple.  I do not know the production run dates of the Roco but I estimate the two Rocos in my possession are from the 1930's, and they appear to be identical in everyway.  I am unable to find any model numbers stamped on any of the parts, only the word "Roco" appears as the model identifier.  I have yet to find a parts list.  This makes me think compatible replacement parts would be of a 'best fit' type, so I'd have to measure etc. and hope there are part(s) available that will suffice.

I believe the staff is friction fit.  The spring is not an overcoil, the wheel is with screws.  (I think at this stage of my ability balancing the wheel to work with a certain spring would be a nightmare due to lack of proper tools.)  

In my haste yesterday I neglected to mention an alternative option for repair (it is a hybrid of option a and b):  The spring's balance wheel seems to be OK, so using the wheel and spring may be possible if I am able to sort out the spring's crossed coils ( see photo #1 - it is of the balance complete that I called assembly #1 - the assembly with the broken pivot).

If I am able to salvage the spring, re-mate it to its current wheel, and use the staff with good pivots (from assembly #2 that is missing only its spring, see photo #2), which of the following would require fewer, more simpler adjustments/operations for the beginner to carry out in making the 're-built' balance complete properly operational?   Would you use assembly #1 fitted with the staff from assembly #2,  or would you use the staff and cock of assembly #2 using the wheel and spring from assembly #1 (or any other component configuration that would be viable)?   Does it make a difference which cock, is used as long as the jewel and regulator is good?

Of course, if I mangle the spring I would need to source a new one with wheel, and I'd prefer to use balance assembly #2 that currently has no spring but a good staff.  What measurements/specification would I need to order a suitable spring and wheel?

 

Nucejoe:  I am very concerned about my ability to swap-out a staff undamaged in the operation without proper tools, of most concern though are my hand tremors.  Tiny work is slow-going but I do enjoy the challange as long as I am able to keep my frustration in check, lol!  

 

Rafae:  I acquired the second Roco mechanism from eBay, a tip I gathered from reading posts on this site.  I've learned much from watchrepairtalk members' posts.  Ain't the internet nifty?

 

Thank You Everyone for your input - it is of great help that is most appreciated!!  I look forward to comments, tips, advice and direction on how to proceed with a course of action.  

[JohnR725]

I was kinda hoping for a model number. But in the absence of a model number if you would give us a picture the dial side the setting components  there is a way of looking at those possibly figuring out which model it is. Otherwise you can go at the link below scroll down to get your name and start looking at the watches and see if anything looks relevant.

Seeing the watch you have probably just the easiest to do which you have swapped the good hairspring onto the good balance wheel make sure you pay attention to where it goes so the watches in beats and will work with that if the watches either way too fast or slow we can play with the timing screws. This is not a super high quality watch from the looks of it so it gives us more things we can play with.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk

[kbp]

John,

I found a mechanism on the Ranfft site that looks to be very much like the ROCO: 

it is a Langendorf 2-10.5"'       The example is of a VACO.  Its keyless works, the bridges, front and back plates look identical to the ROCO with the exception that the click looks like one of those ?'two-prong' 'v-shaped'? clicks and the ROCO's click has but one point.  The Vaco features a sub second (although I don't see how) and is unadjusted, where as the ROCO has no second hand and has two adjustments.   Yippy - Have I struck gold?   -  Thanks for the link!

I will try to repair the crossed-up mainspring and put it on the wheel with good pivot to make the balance complete.  I just might end up with a watch that works; I would be happy if it runs, thrilled if I can get it to keep time with +/- 10 minutes per 24 hours!  

Thank you very much, be well.

PS- the photo of my ROCO is without the hour wheel.

[jimtone]

I'm needing to find a balance spring to replace the snagged spring in my A Schild  -AS-1906- day/date automatic movement

[Nucejoe]

As said , the new hairspring don't neccessarily match with your balance wheel. Screw balance can be slightly adjusted to match the new spring.  

Is your balance wheel a screw one?