Omega 30T2: Safety pin too long?

[gaber]

On 11/3/2022 at 9:03 PM, JohnR725 said:

what did your mainspring look like when you took it out was set

Hi, I had another look at the mainspring:

As I thought I remembered, the spring looks bent near the center (red marking in third pic), but the overall shape of the spring looks like it is capable of storing power.  What do you think?

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, gaber said:

What do you think?

from my point of view the mainspring looks fine. remember it's not imitating a hairspring it just has to have the right curve and still be a spring. Even the curve part isn't entirely correct I have brand-new mainsprings I've taken out of the package that look more set than yours does yours looks brand-new. Also remember when you put it all back together to put some lubrication on the arbor itself in the barrel and usually put a little grease on the mainspring something that's light.

[gaber]

Happy New Year, friends (if it's not too late for such greetings),

Sorry about my slow updates, I know it probably takes time for people to get back up to speed with old long threads.  But life has been busy lately.

Anyway, I was focused on my amplitude, and went ahead and replaced the mainspring.  Now the amplitude is up to healthy levels:

I am left with the timing issue.  It can be brought to about +60 s/day with the regulator moved to its maximum.

I've been reading up a bit about further adjustment and I'm considering the addition of timing washers to slow it down.  Does this seem like the right thing to do now?

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, gaber said:

I know it probably takes time for people to get back up to speed with old long threads

Just because I like to see more than one position how about dial-up and dial down and pick your favorite crown position in one of those. Then yes I looked five pages story I'm lazy I don't want to read five pages. But looking at the first page no wonder I don't remember the discussion it was a little while back wasn't it? Definitely not reading all the rest the pages all he wanted to see was the balance wheel. You want to make sure that the balance wheel is running round. In other words will make sure the arms or where there supposed to be if you squeeze them they will be in the watch will run fast it's amazing how fast a little squeezing will screw up the timekeeping. Then I can't remember what if anything is happened the hairspring so may be a better update us although who knows may be other more enthusiastic people might read the entire discussion again.

But providing the balance wheel is properly shaped and hasn't been squeezed and I don't remember what else happened yes timing washers would slow the thing down. Usually if I'm not play with timing washers I like to put the regulator back in the middle position and then you can add your timing washers and DSL slow things down. Because yes it does look like the balance wheel has screws so it shouldn't be an issue

[gaber]

6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Then yes I looked five pages story I'm lazy I don't want to read five pages.

Sorry about all the lengthy thread, I think I will start a new post with a quick summary of the current issue.

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Just because I like to see more than one position how about dial-up and dial down and pick your favorite crown position in one of those.

In the meanwhile, to answer your question about timing in different positions, it depends on how the regulator is set.  When the regulator arm is in the middle, there is not much positional error:

Dial down: +240 s/day, 250 degrees, 0.2 ms
Crown down: +220 s/day, 230 degrees, 0.4 ms
Dial up: +235 s/day, 250 degrees, 0.1 ms

When the regulator arm is pushed to its slowest, I get more significant positional error:

Dial down: (+60 s/day) 240-250 degrees, 0.0 ms
Crown down: (+90, +120) 210 degrees, 0.7-1.0 ms
Crown up: (+90) 230 degrees, 0.2 ms
Dial up: (+60) 240 degrees, 0.1 ms

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

You want to make sure that the balance wheel is running round. In other words will make sure the arms or where there supposed to be if you squeeze them they will be in the watch will run fast it's amazing how fast a little squeezing will screw up the timekeeping.

Regarding squeezing, I think you brought this up a few months back (page 4) and it wasn't settled definitively, but you thought it was unlikely... "from the videos it looks to me like the balance wheel is right doesn't look like the arms are bent in. "

Thanks for sticking with me on this one, I'm starting to lose track of all the things we touched on, it's really time to start a fresh thread...

[JohnR725]

17 hours ago, gaber said:

Sorry about all the lengthy thread, I think I will start a new post with a quick summary of the current issue.

No need to apologize about the lengthy discussion they happen. The only problem with lengthy discussions are because the length most people won't even read the first several pages. So in prior lengthy discussions I've had were involved with newbies will come in and ask have you tried this because they're not going to reread the last several pages. Or as were finding out here when a discussion starts up again all the past knowledge is well would have to reread it unless we all memorized it.

17 hours ago, gaber said:

n the meanwhile, to answer your question about timing in different positions, it depends on how the regulator is set.  When the regulator arm is in the middle, there is not much positional error:

Dial down: +240 s/day, 250 degrees, 0.2 ms
Crown down: +220 s/day, 230 degrees, 0.4 ms
Dial up: +235 s/day, 250 degrees, 0.1 ms

Now personally ideally I like to do six position timekeeping. Or in other words I look at the watch in all six positions because well in my case I get spoiled at work as I have a machine that just does that and I can see the numbers. But they are diagnosing stuff a you looking for positional stuff you really need more than who were one position.

So dial-up and dial down are almost identical so that's good. That tells us that the pivots are both good at everything looks good there. Dropping to one of the crown positions we could see a decrease in amplitude which is to be expected that always happens. The rate change though could be because the regulator pins are slightly too far apart or?

17 hours ago, gaber said:

When the regulator arm is pushed to its slowest, I get more significant positional error:

Dial down: (+60 s/day) 240-250 degrees, 0.0 ms
Crown down: (+90, +120) 210 degrees, 0.7-1.0 ms
Crown up: (+90) 230 degrees, 0.2 ms
Dial up: (+60) 240 degrees, 0.1 ms

One of things you want to look at is does the hairspring follow the path of the regulator? So in other words as you move the regulator does the hairspring start to move around and lose its center and get bunched up on one side or the other?

there's a bit of the confusion crown down you actually have two separate times?

I went back and looked at the last page and realize that that's a problem As a probably go through the discussion because like is looking at the video and being concerned of something but as I go through the page realize your fixing things so basically I'm seeing things of the past and not necessarily what's going on now.

It was a minor concern I have with the regulator pins of in one of the videos it'd quite look right but I also didn't see the hairspring moving between them so I'm assuming it's just the angle that we were of where you were filming at. So as you move the regulator look at the hairspring and make sure it just stays centered where it's supposed to be otherwise if the hairspring outer curve isn't right as you move the regulator the hairspring will move to one side or another. Which may or may not be happening.

So with all the things have happened which I refuse to go back and read it looks like yes the easy way to fix things now would be some timing washers.Then the easiest are the best way to do it is to make sure the regulator is in the middle say gives you range on either side. Typically the timing washers are by the size of the watch and then there minutes per day but despite what it says on the package it's not an exact science. Then as a reminder if you haven't used to washers before you need a pair of them they go on the screws opposite of each other. Ideally want to have as close to the arm as you can get them if you were worried about temperature variations which typically we don't today the farther on the arm they are the greater the effect they would have with temperatures so it's better to have the washers closer to the arm. Ideally are not supposed but several washers under one screw. And you really want to try not to have to unscrew and put the screws in like a dozen times because they sometimes have a habit of breaking off  or not staying in etc.

 

[gaber]

18 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

So dial-up and dial down are almost identical so that's good. That tells us that the pivots are both good at everything looks good there. Dropping to one of the crown positions we could see a decrease in amplitude which is to be expected that always happens. The rate change though could be because the regulator pins are slightly too far apart or?

It's very interesting to hear your interpretation, thanks for sharing.  The regulator pins seem straight and parallel, if that is any indication.

18 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

One of things you want to look at is does the hairspring follow the path of the regulator?

There certainly could be an issue here, but I'm afraid my approach to correcting this is not so systematic -- I have only adjusted the terminal curve for one position (central) of the regulator arm.  I suppose one should remove hairspring from the balance and check the centering of the collet in several regulator positions?  But it's not so clear how to proceed systematically for me.

Hairspring shaping and manipulation/shaping interests me a lot -- can you recommend any books or other resources on the subject?

18 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

there's a bit of the confusion crown down you actually have two separate times?

I was having trouble getting a consistent reading, so I was reporting a range.  Maybe I was being impatient and should wait longer for a steady mean value.

18 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

as you move the regulator look at the hairspring and make sure it just stays centered where it's supposed to be otherwise if the hairspring outer curve isn't right as you move the regulator the hairspring will move to one side or another.

This comment is very interesting to me.  If the hairspring should be centered between the regulator pins, for all positions of the regulator, this seems to imply that the terminal curve path should be very precisely shaped, implying that I should adopt a more systematic approach for this, as mentioned above.

I managed to get the hairspring to be centered between the pins, with the collet simultaneously centered at the jewel, but this was only with the regulator at its middle position.  I think it's likely that the centering degrades when the regulator is moved away from this position.

19 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

the easy way to fix things now would be some timing washers

OK, but I have not found these available from supply shops online -- is this the sort of thing one has to buy "old stock" from an ebay seller?

[tomh207]

Have a look at these @gaberi think they will help you.

 

Tom

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, gaber said:

There certainly could be an issue here, but I'm afraid my approach to correcting this is not so systematic -- I have only adjusted the terminal curve for one position (central) of the regulator arm.  I suppose one should remove hairspring from the balance and check the centering of the collet in several regulator positions?  But it's not so clear how to proceed systematically for me.

Hairspring shaping and manipulation/shaping interests me a lot -- can you recommend any books or other resources on the subject?

Personally would prefer you not follow the approach your describing. In other words a standard method of centering they hairspring is to remove the hairspring from the balance wheel and adjusting but.

I always liked my first instructor George he commented that the problem with the hairspring is in the watch not out of the watch. So how is that apply here well one of my friends learning watch repair follow this procedure on a Hamilton 992. It took me hours and hours and hours of time to put the hairspring back because out of the watch he couldn't see if they hairspring was still flat when he was doing whatever he was doing. Sometimes yes you do have to remove things but to certain degree it actually makes it harder to tell what you're doing if they hairspring is out of the watch you can't see if it's flat. If it has an over coil it's a real pain to get things back if somebody followed your procedure.

You're actually better off just putting the regulator in the middle and getting everything is perfect as you can and not worrying about it as much than trying to make it fit for all situations.

First link has several books of interest like This one is just a really good general book for watch repair 1945 TM9-1575 War Department Technical Manual. Then scrolling down the page to get to the section titled Joseph School of Watch Making You can download the relevant sections but if you go to the bottom of this area in download the entire manual which is better because in the sectional part I think they're missing a few.

https://www.mybulova.com/vintage-bulova-catalogs

Then for the other book I snipped out the title page and the table of contents. They want to be careful because it comes in variations in some variations may not have some sections.

2 hours ago, gaber said:

OK, but I have not found these available from supply shops online -- is this the sort of thing one has to buy "old stock" from an ebay seller?

Yes like a lot of things they aren't made anymore who knows when the last time they were made try eBay.

[gaber]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

First link has several books of interest like This one is just a really good general book for watch repair 1945 TM9-1575 War Department Technical Manual. Then scrolling down the page to get to the section titled Joseph School of Watch Making You can download the relevant sections but if you go to the bottom of this area in download the entire manual which is better because in the sectional part I think they're missing a few.

https://www.mybulova.com/vintage-bulova-catalogs

Thanks!  Looks great!

 

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Then for the other book I snipped out the title page and the table of contents. They want to be careful because it comes in variations in some variations may not have some sections.

I found an example of this title, but the contents of the book are unfortunately not described.  Hopefully it has the section you marked.

https://www.amazon.com/Bench-Practices-Watch-Repairers-Henry/dp/1684222486/ref=sr_1_3?crid=5R17RLHL1VSS&keywords=henry+fried&qid=1673870452&sprefix=henry+fried%2Caps%2C187&sr=8-3

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

You're actually better off just putting the regulator in the middle and getting everything is perfect as you can and not worrying about it as much than trying to make it fit for all situations.

Then this is my plan.  Time to go shopping for timing washers...

4 hours ago, tomh207 said:

Have a look at these @gaberi think they will help you.

Thanks very much, I look forward to watching them.  I've seen content from this guy before, he has a nice style.

[JohnR725]

21 hours ago, gaber said:

I found an example of this title, but the contents of the book are unfortunately not described.  Hopefully it has the section you marked.

Looking at the link it is a reproduction of the same volume I have. It doesn't say anything about the later date though but the quantity of pages is right so it's probably is the right thing.

Then if you look at the reviews on Amazon it gets really good reviews.

[dadistic]

My copy of "Bench Practices for Watch Repairers" does not have the "Correcting the Bent Hairspring" section. Mine is ISBN 978-1-68422-248-3. A reprint from Martino Fine Books, 2018.

 

[gaber]

2 minutes ago, dadistic said:

My copy of "Bench Practices for Watch Repairers" does not have the "Correcting the Bent Hairspring" section. Mine is ISBN 978-1-68422-248-3. A reprint from Martino Fine Books, 2018.

Thanks for the heads up but that is bad news!  Looks like your ISBN matches the one I ordered.

[dadistic]

Not to worry. You haven't wasted your money, it is an excellent book, even if it doesn't have the exact section @JohnR725referred to. I use it a lot. 

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, dadistic said:

My copy of "Bench Practices for Watch Repairers" does not have the "Correcting the Bent Hairspring" section. Mine is ISBN 978-1-68422-248-3. A reprint from Martino Fine Books, 2018.

I have had other people say the same thing. When you compare your table of contents to the one I posted above because the page count is about the same so I'm curious where the page discrepancy is?

Oh then there is this the problem is he makes it looks so darn easy but when you have as much experience with hairsprings as he did everything is going to look easy.

 

 

[dadistic]

In my book, pg. 26 continues the colleting info, and shows how to make hairspring truing calipers.  The only corrections that are shown are to true the hairspring at the collet. 

[JohnR725]

HHere's what the start of the missing section looks like.

3 hours ago, dadistic said:

You haven't wasted your money, it is an excellent book,

While I was looking for the missing section I was noticing the answer to another question on this message board somewhere. Somebody having problems with the other type of canon pinion.  This also demonstrates a minor problem with all the reference books some of us might have is that from time to time you should actually just look through them to remember which you have. The same as things like the bestfit book as it's so large and has so much it's hard to even remember everything that's in there.

[gaber]

19 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I have had other people say the same thing. When you compare your table of contents to the one I posted above because the page count is about the same so I'm curious where the page discrepancy is?

The 2018 edition appears to simply be missing that material.  The page number of the start of Chapter III is identical (23), but the length of the chapter is much shorter with chapter IV starting at page 29.  What a mystery!

[gaber]

If anyone wants to keep following this project, I set up a new thread here...  just for the sake of making the discussion easier to follow.

Thanks guys.