Shout-out for help Citizen 8110A-BALANCE PROBLEM

[Wdc]

I am seeking advice on how to address a problem I am having on the re-assembly of the 8110A movement.  

Preamble: This was a project watch purchased for restoration. I do not recall if the movement ran smooth without the balance stopping before strip-down. The Cal was stripped, cleaned, inspected, re-assembled, train runs smooth without pallet fork

Problem: cannot keep Balance Wheel (BW) in motion, keeps hanging up in the same spot, when balance rotates clockwise with the balance spoke about 10-oclock.

1.       When I inspect, I can see the roller jewel against the right side of the fork

2.       When I apply a bit of pressure on the BW, more to the right clockwise the jewel will push past center of the fork and the BW keeps turning right.

3.       The BW will do the same if pressed counter-clockwise (CCW) past the fork but it does not hang up CCW as you can see in the video

4.       I have inspected the Roller Jewel it looks ok, not chipped, broken or loss

5.       Pallet fork looks ok

The problem appears to be the roller jewel hitting the fork on the right side and wedging.  

Any thought and/or recommendations would be appreciated.

Thanks, Will

[rodabod]

Just to clarify: the roller jewel is meant to enter the notch of the pallet fork and begin to force it to snap over to the opposite banking pin when the balance rotates. Does your roller jewel do this? 

A trivial fault can be if the balance is inserted with the impulse jewel sitting on the wrong side of the pallet fork. I’m guessing you already know how to do this. 

This video provides a nice explanation of what I was describing, ie. over-banking:

Slightly more complex is the finer details of the “safety” features of the Swiss Lever which prevent over-banking. A relatively common issue here is a bent guard pin, so you can remove the pallet to check this if need be. 

[Wdc]

Thank you for that, excellent video!

I have been trying to eliminate being on the wrong side of the fork with the roller jewel by positioning the jewel between the two forks. In some movement its hard or impossible to see but in this case,  I have a clear unobstructed view.

I was led to believe you could do this to prevent overbanking if you do not know what side to place the jewel, left or right.

This does Segway to the question of how does one know from caliber to caliber if your to position left or right?

I have noticed a “L” stamped into the base plate (framework) near the pallet fork and was wondering if this was a indicator. Photo of “L” attached note the "L" below the pallet fork bridge.

Thank you for your response, I will study this area a bit closer.  

[Nucejoe]

Hi Will,   Clear and explanative video.

1- Unlevel fork pallets, too much fork or escape wheel end shake. This jewel system keeps both endstones right on pivots at all times therefor there is no staff end shake, not inclusive of all side shakes.

2- Overbanking steming from damaged fork's horn, banking pins.

I will return the adjusting arm back to the position where impulse jewel come to rest right in the midle of fork horn. To do so, check pallets and escape engagement.

Next would eliminate the escape wheel from the seen, that is remove the escape wheel, reinstall fork and balance, observe if the fault remains. 

With that much data,  to the point advices can be expected to come in.

Joe

 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

Correction ,

Check the pallets and escale engagement ( wrong) 

Keep an eye on pallets and escalement ( correct) 

[Nucejoe]

Considering that not much if any can be added to the video rodabad sent and his advice, the fault is unlikely to be anywhere else, the previous owner got tired of the not finding the fault. 

[rodabod]

10 hours ago, Wdc said:

This does Segway to the question of how does one know from caliber to caliber if your to position left or right?

Where you position the impulse jewel when fitting the balance is entirely based on whether the pallet for is resting on the left hand banking pin, or the right hand banking pin. On your last photo, the pallet fork is resting on the right hand banking pin (note on this movement the pins are actually part of the base plate; this is common on later movements.

[Nucejoe]

Hi Will, It is alright, actually better, msg through the forum have sure found me,  yet sometimes I can,t even get to forums main page.

I added some possible causes of the issue. As for overbanking I learned from rodabad advice and direction  though adjusting the pallets to the good working  position is easier said than done, I say shellac as soon as you get to good pallet position,  I had one which snapped back to wrong position before I got to glue the pallets , regretful.

[Wdc]

Gentlemen thank you for the in-depth response. The problem does appear to be associated with the positioning of the roller jewel (RJ). I do recall watching Marks video on lining up the jewel with the forks while in a resting position. I was just hoping to not have to get into it so soon…lol

I am reflecting on the numerous installing of the Balance ASSY while trying to work this out and I have been having to turn the bridge 90° from its mounting position in order to line up the RJ with the center of the fork. To someone more experienced that would have been a dead give-away.

Give me a bit to read and re-read your comments as a lot of what I read on first glance was fussy-jargon to a newbe.

Thanks again and,  “I Will Be Back”.

Will

[Wdc]

Also, I going to circle back around on the Citizen base plate stamping of “L or R” (below in photos), does anyone know what this signifies? The 8110A I have been working on is stamped “L” and when cracking open a 8200 I see it stamped “R”. I am thinking this may sig what side of the fork to position the RJ.

I have scanned the net and find no reference to the letters.

Any thoughts?

 

 

Edited December 30, 2018 by Wdc

[Wdc]

Correction after looking closer, its not off 90°. From first glace the RJ looks to be lined up within the fork while it sits on the left banking pin.

I need to go back and find @MARK video on this, cant recall if the center between the banking pins when lining up the RJ.

 

I am assuming I can use the regulator on the balance cock for small adjustment and do not need to mess with the collet?

Edited December 30, 2018 by Wdc

[rodabod]

The letters on the base plate are irrelevant. It may be a revision code or a reference to the type of plating. 

Firstly confirm that you have located the impulse jewel inside the pallet fork by looking inside with an eyeglass and carefully moving the balance wheel from side to side with an oiler. You should be able to see the impulse jewel push the pallet fork from one side to another.

[Nucejoe]

Fork horn appears damaged in the picture. 

To check fork and balance work, I remove all else, that is only leave the fork and balance installed,  shake to get the balance oscilate ,observe. See if the impulse passes through the horn properly. If no problem on this side of the fork, I look for fault at the pallets.

 

•  

[Nucejoe]

Fork horn appears damaged.

I install fork and balance, remove all else. Shake to get the balance rotate, observe if impulse jewel passes through horn properly, while at it adjust so impulse jewel comes to rest inside horn.

[Nucejoe]

You will find mainplates stamped T, M ,O .... Too.

I am not following you, is the impulse jewel suppose to rest on the left or right side of the fork?

I always go for finding and fixing faults before strip down. 

Even now, I eliminate the escape wheel from list of unknowns remove the escpae wheel if the problem get eliminted, the fault is located on the pallet side, If it persists I say the fault is from pallets onward in which case further tests are to be carried out.

Regards joe

 

 

[Wdc]

Good Morning Gentlemen (i.e. @Nucejoe, @rodabod),

A quick note to let you know that I apricate your above advise and to let you know I have not abandoned you. 

Even though I am to the most part retired, I do still occasionally consult for some of my valued customers on specialty drilling projects, mostly overseas. I am, more or less, a fire fighter they contact when things go amuck, requiring me to drop everything and focus on their problem.

With things back to normal I picked up a Seiko 6139-6002 that was striped and cleaned, and waiting for reassembly,  focusing on something I know before revisiting the Citizen.

That said, I found myself re-reading all your comments to solidify it in my fading mind and I again thank you both.

PS: the bench is again lit and alive