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The old zinc sulphide is mixed with the radium and cannot itself be removed. The fresh zing sulphide was just layered on top of the old mixed lume. Thanks for the genetics lesson, but off topic.

It's really nice of you get a sensitive Geiger counter with audio. In other words if I turn the Geiger counter on that I have about every 20 to 30 seconds there is a little pop sound some random piece of something flying through space. But slowly bring it up near the packet of brand-new watch hands I have and it starts to pick up where though there is more and more of them in the wood bursts get closer and closer and then it sounds like a rapid machine gun fire. But it does bring up a problem my brand-new hands that look brand-new how old are they? The fact that the Geiger counter makes an interesting sound tells you that they must be reasonably old. If you're looking up brand-new hands on a card with the way they used to come if you move the hand a little bit C can see underneath on usually the radium ones you will see that the paper is a darker color. But otherwise it could be a card of hands made last year or whatever you can't tell. Or when you are buying old watchmakers stuff it used to be the feel the hands in they had a wax substance you'd melt it and you put that on the hands and I was thought that was all newer except once again the Geiger counter got really excited so maybe it's not that new. Then yes they did make some actual radium and refilling kits there was once one in the material house that I managed to acquire. It's very clearly labeled radium but it's not labeled touch it and you'll die they weren't afraid of radium back then. Then conceivably you're going to find that almost everything that fluoresces before a certain age is probably radium. Maybe I should work on military watches oh wait they have like 1 million times the radium of a normal civilian with each. Like a ships clock for instance I've heard stories of people going day Canada for watch show coming back to the US and getting pulled aside just for the possession of one ships clock with radium hands because the detectors at the border able to pick up something like that in your car. Then depending upon who you are determines how nicely they treat you. One was a older couple in a nice car slid invited him inside I think they gave moved coffee asked if they had any medical procedures asked if they could search the car and then they brought the offending clock in. The other person apparently they were out with their M-16s and more concerned about the way he looked. But it's interesting one radioactive ships clock you can't even come back to the country and no I don't know if they got confiscated or not The definitely if you want to be upset get yourself a Geiger counter and start looking at everything you have. Oh and here's a YouTube Channel you might find interesting. The last video covers what were talking about now which Geiger counter to buy and then go look at his early videos where he visits antique stores and other places where you'd think it would be safe but well it isn't https://www.youtube.com/@RadioactiveDrew Yes I suspect if radium was the killer of watchmakers it would be a much bigger thing than it is. Radium almost falls into a category of if you don't know it's bad then it's not going to hurt you..

I have said this somewhere else on this forum: working on radium is simply not a concern IMHO. I posted several government papers on the topic that support my view and I gave the anecdotal evidence that my father worked on radium watches from 1947 to about 1990 without taking any precautions that I am aware of. He died at 93 of issues unrelated to radium All that being said, don't eat it or ingest it through other body orifices. I have one of the inexpensive geiger counters...just for fun.

on the card it gives me it says 5-50 cpm is considered normal for this counter. Again assuming because it detects Beta and Gamma. I'm in the states. Particularly NJ. It says 0.13 - .16 in Sv/h. I highly doubt this is because of working on a few radium watches. "Normal background radiation (as measured by the Leiger), is around 20-30 CPM (counts per minute, or about 0.14 uSv/hour)" https://reimaginingeducation.org/what-is-safe-cpm-radiation/ This quote is from the website link above ^

I printed this crude temporary stand for the clock. Sits on my desk for now. Keeping great time, but because of the crud that was on the dial, it is hardly visible. I know that refinishing dials is a deal breaker for a lot of people, but I am seriously considering, removing the old radium lume and reluming with a modern one. It is just unusable as is...I think. I can always make the "Oh no...it is radioactive!!!!" excuse.

Thank you for the advice, I do actually have some old beat up watches but the problem is she is gonna make me "restore" the case and service the movement and all that for a watch that's not worth it that;s why I asked about blank Chinese watches I get her five of them and she doesn't nag me about watches for a while (I hope she doesn't read this). Regarding that radium lume I haven't come accross any watch with that kind of lume yet but I'm sure I'll know it when I see it and I'll take the necessary precautions.

A nice idea that has been discussed here a few times and something i intend to try. Some very old worn dials are beyond restoration imo, i have a few. Just look for old working or repairable watches with battered dials. As we have also been discussing just recently be careful with pre 60s radium lume dials, especially if completely stripping them to customise.

I never regularly worked on radium dials. Maybe maximum two. Thanks for the reassurance. @mikepilk. Thanks for your comment as well. I unfortunately don't see too many hobbiest watchmakers talk about the dangers of radium. It's important to look out for the little guys. Those who are just starting out and don't know what to look for. We tell a lot of new watchmakers to practice on vintage watches (which is a good way to practice), but vintage watches can obviously be a bit dangerous when in the wrong hands, especially when learning to relume. Just a unsettling invisible danger. Thanks for the info guys

I sometime work on radium watches- I've just removed the radium from the dial and hands of a 60s Rotary. I have a "Pocket Geiger" so I can check any suspect watches - I didn't expect this mid to late 60s watch to have radium. Glad I checked. After plenty of research, I decided it's OK to work with radium (I try to avoid the watches*), but taking the following precautions (probably more than I need to) : I cover my work surface with cling-film, I wear a mask and latex gloves (probably not needed). The radium dissolves easily in water. To remove dots from the dial I used wet cotton buds. For hands - I put then in a very small plastic bag/container and a blast in the ultrasonic. Change the water, do it again until no reading on the geiger. I only use a teaspoon of water each time, then soak it up in to a tissue and bag it. Everything disposable used gets sealed in plastic bags and disposed in the household waste bin. All tools used get washed in the sink. *With some "more valuable" watches, people want the original patina of the dial and hands. I have a Universal Geneve with radium, but I'm leaving untouched. I'm just careful when working on it (seal the dial/hands in a bag)

Prolonged and consistent exposure to radium would cause health issues matty. You will be fine dont worry, unless you were working on radium dial watches on a regular basis and being very careless. Just take precautions in the future.

your the man lexacat. I was panicking in my room for about two hours. I'm going to invest in a Geiger counter, and vow to never work on radium dials. I'm gonna vacuum the ever living hell out of my room, and wash off my work bench. Thanks for calming my nerves down.\ Im not the brightest watchmaker in the bunch

https://www.mass.gov/service-details/health-effects-of-radium-radiation-exposure Long story short, unless you've been exposed to radium in large amounts or small/medium amounts over long periods of time, the chance of having any adverse health issues are pretty small. Unless you were scratching off the lume and intentionally breathing in the dust, handling a couple of watches without proper dust protection and/or gloves is unlikely to have any impact on you. I highly recommend against anyone doing this and urge anyone dealing with radium to take the proper precautions or just don't work on that movement.

I believe Iv worked on at least 2 watches with radium on the dials. Both times I hadnt taken the proper precautions when working on radium watches, as I hadnt known any better. Am I in danger? This picture is a watch I worked on recently. And I cannot tell if its radium or really old tritium. The hand glow for less than a second under a black light.

We are all different mate and all prone to different diseases depending on our genetics. Cancers , heart diseases, respiratory issues, overactive immune illnesses, underactive immune illnesses,dementias etc, etc. Its about edging your bets mate, if cancer runs in your family then smoking is going to run your risk that bit closer. If heart disease then try to eat a healthy diet. Only fair to state the obvious that one person can be more susceptible to radium effect than another person. Precautions should ALWAYS be taken when working on old radium dials, but the risk of the individual should always be down to the individual and not influenced in any way.

It is true that our 'radium girls' developed cancer as a result of unknowingly ingesting quantities of radium. But 'other girls' have died from tobacco. If you have a fine watch with a well preserved radium dial, such as my Longines cal 18.88Z, relax a little and realse that you are in no danger unless you eat the dial. Radium itself in the quantities used on dials does not glow. It was the incorporated fluorescent zinc sulphide that glowed. But over the years this has been degraded by the radiation. Perhaps into zinc oxide. I asked Dr. Roland Ranfft to do a little experiment by painting zinc sulphide onto the non-glowing ancient dial numbers and hands. The newly applied zinc suphide glowed giving the dial its original look. He now supplies activated zinc sulphide for anyone who is a good painter or who can outsource the work. Alternatively, the modern phosphors such as Luminova will also glow permanently, and more brightly than zinc sulphide, when applied to old radium dials. But the 'look' will be less authentic.

Some of my Ingraham "dollar" pocketwatches. check out the Radium.

I just Googled this topic and learned that "almost every watch between 1917 and the early 1970s used a form of radium paint", and that "the easiest way to tell if a watch is radioactive is to pick up a simple Geiger counter". However, the article also mentions other ways or hints to determine if a watch uses radium. I didn't realize how dangerous radium is until I read the article and considering that many of the watches we enjoy working on are pre-1970s, I'm going to be more cautious in the future. Here's the article.

watched it awhile back. tragic and fascinating at the same time. I have a few dollar watches that have the radium. I don't touch em and they sit in sealed plastic bags. you can really tell the difference when I hit them with a UV light. even some at 100 years old they light up like nothing we use today. I've been told you can work on them with gloves and a mask, in a well ventilated area. But to wash your hands and clothes after. nah. I'll just leave them where they're at to look at them. good flick. .

You can see that it was used beyond the transition from "waterproof" to "water resistant" and also through the radium-to-tritium transition and beyond. Even as shock protection became commonplace, lower-tier makers often used "Incabloc" on the dials as an attempt put something there to help drive a buyer to pick their watch out of the case. In fact, the early electronic watches still had a balance, and you can also see Incabloc printed on the dial of some of those (look for a Mirexal Electronic Incabloc) so it survived into the late 60s/early70s until the full-on quartz revolution occurred and most watches no longer had a staff that needed to be protected. (Or because many of the cheaper mechanicals that still survived used non-Swiss movements with another protection system such that they couldn’t lay claim to "Incabloc" any longer).

I picked up this watch as part of a group from an auction site. Originally I thought it might be a cal. 292 which was (I believe) produced exclusively in the 40's. After opening the case, it turns out to be a cal. 452. I can't find a lot online about these particular movements. Does anyone know the history? I'm planning to make a thread for this watch with more images and info as I start working on getting it back into good working order. I'm a complete novice, but I know it's a pin-lever escapement, and the lume is almost definitely radium, so I know it will a) be annoying to service and b) also be somewhat hazardous. I'm not planning to start restoring/repairing this watch for my first attempt, I've got some cheaper modern movements on the way that I'll be practising on first. But eventually the plan is to tackle this watch when I have more experience.

Today's mystery watch is a "Tower Watch Co." which claims to be have Incabloc shock protection, however it looks a little odd for an Incabloc in my opinion. Can anybody shed light on what the calibre is, and whether that is some kind of Incabloc or not. It also claims to be "waterproof", but we can take that with a very large pinch of salt, since it has no seals to speak of, nor any evidence that there ever were. The watch runs, with a good amplitude, but it stops after a while, so I'm going to have to give it a close "dental inspection" I suspect. It got a fresh crystal, as the original had some interesting brown marks that might have been associated with the lume, which is possibly (probably?) radium. Don't worry folks, I didn't go licking the dial, and washed my hands after the operation. I don't recognise the maker's mark on the case either, so if anybody knows what that signifies, I'd be interested to know.

There is a handy plug-in radiation monitor for the smartphone with Apple and Android Apps. It plugs into the audio port and for my Android system it compares well with my Japanese Geiger counter. eBay list several versions all from CN. Radium hand in watches are harmless - the alpha particles are stopped by the crystal and gamma radiation that escapes is nothing compared to the cosmic radiation dose received during a single trans-atlantic flight. Bare radium hands should be treated with care to avoid ingestion via nose or mouth. But if stored in a metal or plastic box they are also pretty harmless. There is good evidence that small doses of ionizing radiation (gamma rays) could be beneficial as it is supposed that they stimulate the immune system. In my radiation work I took a sizeable dose spread over many years and now at 85 never suffer from colds, flu or Covid.

in the timeframe that he operated epilam did exist I think it first came into existence in about 25 roughly give or take. What would happen here is where did he learned watch repair. Did he belonged in a horological associations probably. Did the horological Association ever published anything on epilam did he read the article and did he care. And then it's back to if the technical documentation up until recently other then specialized documents were they specifically covered cleaning lubrication epilam if none of the technical documentation mentions epilam people will happily be servicing a watch is falling to recommendations with no idea that there supposed to be doing this of course the other way around this is like the keyless works is to decide that Greece would be better than super light oil with epilam or you question the sanity of why would anyone use super light oil and not know about the epilam.. In which case you use grease and that's going to work just fine and you don't need to epilam. The other thing that happens is? Okay epilam is used everywhere that 9010 is used at the factory level the balance jewels treated with some process balance staff. Pallet fork jewels and the teeth escape wheel so what happens if you don't and how do you know that you didn't? So which case he can service a watch it can go out and how we do know that you didn't what would be the consequence is it a spectacular consequence an answer is no because what was you would notice right away uunless you have a timing machine that measures amplitude near obsessed with amplitude and you're watching a watch year after year after year you might not see a falloff of performance and even if you did would you blame it on the lack of epilam and the lubrication on the escapement for instance running away. My place that I've ever noticed this on watches IdcService long-term and why don't use 9010 is 9010 on the and stones the balance I've noticed long time just disappears which I was that was strange I thought it was a undesirable characteristic of 9010 which it actually is. So if the end stone was treated with epilam they do not recommend the hole jewel probably because we can apply a super thin coating like the factory does but that's a guess but without the epilam on the end stone the oil would be free to spread with time. sso basically it means the lack of proper technical literature that spells out that you should be doing this than most people probably wouldn't know until relatively modern times when it's started to be mentioned literally everywhere. Bike if you look at a modern eta document it's prominently mentioned on practically every single parts where the older documents was never mentioned at all. That's why he never used it nobody ever told him that bad things would happen to the universe if he's not using it so. It's kind of like the discussion on radium hands if you don't have a Geiger counter is that going to be a problem for you?

we have an interesting problem is radium a problem if you don't know about it? Finding lots of things interesting I assembly Geiger counter, partial kit. So mine is in calibrated but I can tell by how fast the clicking sound is that that's probably not good. Like the bag of military clock hands you'll pick it up several feet away and up close it sounds well very bad. But what about the cards of watch hands. Watch hands come on paper cards if they have radium strong radium that I actually burn the paper which you can see the burnt paper look see you can tell it's radium but what about the other handset haven't burnt the paper are they a problem? So if you look up radium was discontinued a certain year so we should feel safe that there is no radium left except a vintage. But watchmakers hold on the stuff forever what about those cards of florescent colored hands they haven't burnt the paper yet does that mean there's safe? As I said there's been a discussion somewhere else on the group there are sites that talk about this so it's hard to tell how big of a problem it is unless you have a Geiger counter then it's a problem. Because now you know you have a problem otherwise you live in happy bliss that you don't realize what's going on. So I was surprised that a sizable quantity of the hands I had our radioactive. I can't remember where I banished the cards a radioactive hands are no longer in the bench. Even one of the hand refinishing kits later generation ones have a wax and something that looks like it might go ahead and and I thought all of those were safe but I have one of those it's radium. I also actually have a radium and refinishing kits one of the material houses found one of their back stocks I purchased it because I thought it was nifty so it's an banished I think the attic the same places the hands are. So yes it's an interesting problem radium no matter what isn't good for you. Purchasing new old stock hams that look brand-new but you can't tell when they were made a Geiger counter goes crazy well maybe that wasn't a good purchase after all