Pocket Watch identification help please ...

[Endeavor]

Hello All;

Another project on my table, this time a bit of a mystery for me. It would be nice if somebody could tell me a bit more about this Pocket Watch, age and the movement type.

First some pictures and what I already know;

"Carl Hetzel Anholt" written on the enamel dial. Anholt is a small German village in the German State of North Rhine-Westphalia.

The back of the case has on the inside 0.800 and the Grouse hallmark stamped in. The same numbering and hallmarks can be found in the top ring and on other watch housing parts.

Carl Hetzel must have been a driven entrepreneur and perhaps thought "never let an opportunity go to waste", and so engraved his name also in the dust-cover. One can't repeat it enough

The movement size is 41.3mm or 18.5'''. The only makers mark on the wheel-train bridge says: "Depose". On the front of the main-plate a number: 5238.51

It runs, but is in desperate need of a service and a new main-spring.

 

From what I gather from the internet, this watch seems to have a "Cylinder escapement", there is no lever and the escape-wheel engages directly into the balance-wheel shaft. There is a cutaway cylinder on the balance wheel shaft and the 15 teeth escape wheel looks like the picture below;

Further internet reading reveals that this type of escapements are used in inexpensive movements. Perhaps this explains the hard tractability of the movement? Also disassembling; it doesn't "feel" like high-end.

Has anybody any idea from which period this watch is? Some more information about the movement? Any value guesstimates ? Is it worth to fixing up; it needs fur sure a new mainspring.

Hope somebody has some knowledge about these type of watches ......

Regards: Roland.

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2017 by Endeavor

[oldhippy]

You are right it is a cylinder movement and they tend to be low down the list when it comes to quality. This movement isn’t that bad as it is jewelled, so its better than many. Cylinder movements are not the best timekeepers, as the balance is not compensated so depending on atmosphere it will gain or lose time.  Checking the internet the grouse hallmark gives the date imported to the UK between 1880 and 1907; this is on silver and gold cases only. Providing the escapement/cylinder are in good condition I see no reason why it should not be repaired. You might have a little difficulty in finding the correct m/spring.  

[Endeavor]

@oldhippy Thank you   Well that's is already some good news that this movement isn't on the bottom of the bottom-list.

At least the housing is 80% silver and once polished, it could become quite nice again ......

As for the main-spring: I guess the installed main-spring isn't the original and seems very tired, as you can see in the picture below. It wasn't eager to leave the barrel

The barrel has a little hook inside, suggesting perhaps a TR-end spring. I have to take some more precise measurements, but if the old spring could service as some kind of reference, the height is 2.5mm, thickness of about 0.2mm, perhaps 0.21mm, and a length of about 440mm'ish . The barrel ID is 15.5mm. If I were to use the David Boettcher "reverse engineering" calculator (http://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/mainsprings.php ) the estimate is: Spring thickness = 0.191, length = 480, turns = 6.3, area = 55%. Looking a CousinsUK springs, 2.5mm high; there aren't any TR-springs and perhaps the GR6702 with normal bridle (2.50 x .20 x 480 x 15.5 Non-Automatic) may be the happy medium between the old installed spring and the calculators estimate? Closer to the calculators estimate is, again with a normal bridle, the GR6685 with 2.50 x .19 x 480 x 15 Non-Automatic.

[StuartBaker104]

I’m sure you will be fine with a standard bridle here as per the spring you have removed.

Depose is an abbreviation of Modele Depose which means “registered design”. The only way you will find the movement reference is by using a cataloge such as bestfit, but once you’ve found it you are very unlikely to find parts as a result.

Care point when working on cylinder movements is to always ensure the mainspring power is released before removing the balance, otherwise it will all release at that point with excessive enthusiasm.  If in any doubt use a wedge of tissue paper to prevent the train from moving and when the balance is removed use a piece of pegwood or similar to stop the train running too fast when you take the paper out.

Check the inside of the cylinder for caked on oil and clean with peg wood.

Your timegrapher won’t play nicely with this so you will have to time by reference to a time source over ever extending periods.

Good luck!

[Endeavor]

@StuartBaker104 Thanks again Stuart

I guess there is no point then chasing the ID of the movement self any further. I "just" have to make sure not to break anything.

Good tip with the residual power, but as per standard precaution / procedure, I removed all the main spring power before pulling the crown.

Question left; how does one oil a cylinder escapement? Some tiny droplets on the outside of some escape wheel teeth, like one would do on pallet jewels?

Anyway, an interesting surprise, haven't worked on a cylinder movement before ... again, a nice & interesting learning opportunity ! Another write-up for in the future ...... X-mas is knocking on the door  

Happy X-mas to you all !  .......

Edited December 21, 2017 by Endeavor

[oldhippy]

Question left; how does one oil a cylinder escapement? Some tiny droplets on the outside of some escape wheel teeth, like one would do on pallet jewels?

That is correct.

[StuartBaker104]

Quote

12 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Question left; how does one oil a cylinder escapement? Some tiny droplets on the outside of some escape wheel teeth, like one would do on pallet jewels?

That is correct.

 

Exactly. The BHI guide on lubrication says “The escape wheel teeth of cylinder movements should be oiled so that a small amount is transferred to the inner and outer surfaces of the cylinder.”

I use Moebius 9415 here as I would on a lever escapement.

[Endeavor]

@StuartBaker104: Reading up on Cylinder escapements, the stronger the mainspring, the more friction between the teeth of the escape wheel and the cylinder ......especially when the teeth-tips are getting worn. Another consideration is the banking-pin impact, which may cause vibrations when the main-spring is too strong. For the cylinder-escapement untrained eye, with a 10x loupe, the teeth don't look worn, that is to say that the sharp tips of some teeth are very thin and perhaps I see slightly folded material. The cylinder looks in a good shape and the balance-staff pivots are in very good shape.

The "reverse engineering calculator" estimated spring was: Spring thickness = 0.191, length = 480, turns = 6.3, area = 55%.

CousinsUK has in my opinion two candidates, both normal bridle; the GR6685; 2.50 x .19 x 480 x 15 Non-Automatic or the GR6702; 2.50 x .20 x 480 x 15.5 Non-Automatic. The non-original spring removed had a thickness of 0.2mm.

Which of the two candidates would in this case be the best choice?

Edited December 22, 2017 by Endeavor

[oldhippy]

It is very easy to see if the teeth are worn on the escape wheel. Add a tiny amount of power, the balance wheel should start, if the movement of the balance is poor the chances are the teeth or cylinder will be worn. Stop the balance wheel and move it with your tweezers, if it escapes with hardly any movement its worn. Cylinders are so hard and brittle they hardly are scored with wear, if so you are in big trouble. The cylinder is made up of three parts the two end parts are called plugs, plus the main part, which I have always known to be the shaft. You need the proper punches in order to remove the plugs.  

[Endeavor]

@oldhippy Thank you very much for your explanation  

As far as I can see, the cylinder looks okay. It's only the tips of two or three teeth whose ends seems to be folded, if ever so slightly. I read about the build up of the cylinder, but having no experience and neither any tools for those kinds of operations; if the cylinder is no good, or the escape wheel for that matter, it may the be end of this exercise / watch. Perhaps, if required, I could slightly touch up the tips from underneath or the "heel" of the teeth.

Reading further in Gazeleys book, chapter "The cylinder escapement", one can go pretty fast down hill if you start fiddling with the teeth. So far, from what I understood, spare parts for this movement aren't easy to find, particularly if one has no clear movement identification.

We better hope that it runs fine after a new main-spring is installed........... A spring is going to cost me £10 including shipping, so in my opinion, it's worth a try. It seemed to run okay before disassembling.....

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Endeavor

[oldhippy]

If you’re not sure what you are doing leave the escapement alone.  

[Endeavor]

Yes, that was my intention

[StuartBaker104]

6 hours ago, Endeavor said:

@StuartBaker104: Reading up on Cylinder escapements, the stronger the mainspring, the more friction between the teeth of the escape wheel and the cylinder ......especially when the teeth-tips are getting worn. Another consideration is the banking-pin impact, which may cause vibrations when the main-spring is too strong. For the cylinder-escapement untrained eye, with a 10x loupe, the teeth don't look worn, that is to say that the sharp tips of some teeth are very thin and perhaps I see slightly folded material. The cylinder looks in a good shape and the balance-staff pivots are in very good shape.

The "reverse engineering calculator" estimated spring was: Spring thickness = 0.191, length = 480, turns = 6.3, area = 55%.

CousinsUK has in my opinion two candidates, both normal bridle; the GR6685; 2.50 x .19 x 480 x 15 Non-Automatic or the GR6702; 2.50 x .20 x 480 x 15.5 Non-Automatic. The non-original spring removed had a thickness of 0.2mm.

Which of the two candidates would in this case be the best choice?

I’d go with the slightly thinner spring in this case

[Endeavor]

The GR6685; 2.50 x .19 x 480 x 15 Non-Automatic it shall be I'll order it after X-mas.

I took pictures of the disassembly and as soon as the watch is back together, I'll do another walkthrough.

Thank you all for your help!

Have a nice X-mas