Loose roller table

[dnhb]

In trying to re-install a balance assembly in a small pocket watch I found that the roller table was rotating on its arbour. I have tried pressing it using an appropriate stake but to no avail. Under magnification I think I can see shellac around the area where it sits on the boss of the balance wheel (I can't get a clear enough picture to show this). Is this in fact how such tables are secured or are they just a friction fit? I'd be grateful for advice.

[Nucejoe]

I be concerned if this roller table belongs ! 

 Timegrapher will ask,  where did you get this roller table or balance staff from?  

Regs

[JohnR725]

The roller table is supposed to be held on by friction. If there is shellac under the roller table it might indicate that an improper repair had occurred prior to this as it would not be held in place with shellac. Sometimes overenthusiastic people re-shellacking the roller jewel will get shellac where it's not supposed to be.

Then the picture of your roller it looks kind of damage? It doesn't quite look right it looks like somebody held with a pair of pliers or something?

Then your balance wheel has limited quantity of screws? Not necessarily a problem but an indication of perhaps with the other things a prior bad repair perhaps as a guess.

 

[caseback]

The problem/challenge with these things is that you don't know what brilliant solutions previous watch-tinkerers have come up with. Are all parts even "original"? Did the watch run ok (-ish) when you got it?

One possibility is that a replacement staff has been fitted and turned out to be a loose fit. 

Some of this has been discussed in the following thread:

 

Edited Monday at 06:14 AM by caseback

[mikepilk]

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Then your balance wheel has limited quantity of screws?

This suggests that the hairspring may have been changed.  It certainly needs some straightening.

It may just be the lighting, but it looks like the pivot is out of shape.

[dnhb]

7 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I be concerned if this roller table belongs ! 

 Timegrapher will ask,  where did you get this roller table or balance staff from?  

Regs

It's from a 1" diameter pocket watch the dial of which says "West End Watch Co."; "Queen Anne"; "Bombay Calcutta". A local Charity shop has asked me to put it into saleable condition....

[Nucejoe]

 Unlikely to run happy, you will see  low amplitude, hindered oscilation, and awful timegrapher display.

 Cheaper to replace this balance complete with a new one.

Regs

 

 

[dnhb]

12 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 Cheaper to replace this balance complete with a new one.

I can't see how that would be cheaper as I help my local charity shops on a pro bono basis. But of more interest to me would be to understand how to work out the specification of a replacement balance given that the chance of being able to order the part from the company or OEM must be effectively zero.....

[AndyGSi]

32 minutes ago, dnhb said:

I can't see how that would be cheaper as I help my local charity shops on a pro bono basis. But of more interest to me would be to understand how to work out the specification of a replacement balance given that the chance of being able to order the part from the company or OEM must be effectively zero.....

It all depends on the movement but if you've got to get a new arbor then you'll need to know that anyway.

[Nucejoe]

11 hours ago, dnhb said:

 interest to me would be to understand how to work out the specification of a replacement balance.

 You know, building a complete balance complete out of all new parts takes more work than just assembly .

 Most west end watches were powered by FHF movements, some by AS and other movement makes as well , some pieces of the  Secundus collection even came  with longines movements.

 ----- In case you do not know this movement's caliber No, put up some pix in IDENTIFY THIS MOVEMENT ----  . subforum,  one pic of the keyless would do. 

 Material houses such as cousins.uk are likely to carry the parts you need. 

 Providing serviced properly and a simple restoration this watch is likely to fetch $250 upwards on ebay.

 No shortage of help and advice on WRT and  by the end of this thread we enjoy seeing your watch run happy. 

Regs

 

 

[dnhb]

Thanks Nucejoe, you've encouraged me to think it may, after all, be worthwhile trying to find out more about the watch & availability of parts so I've contacted the WEW Co. via it's website.

On 5/5/2025 at 8:55 AM, mikepilk said:

This suggests that the hairspring may have been changed.  It certainly needs some straightening.

It may just be the lighting, but it looks like the pivot is out of shape.

It *is* the lighting - & poor photography! I'd moved the stud to the other side temporarily which affected how the hairspring lay. However, I've now removed the table & can confirm that there's an untidy splodge of shellac underneath which I assume must have caused a depth issue.If I can clean it up I thought I might try some red threadlocker in the table's 'tube' to secure it to the arbour....

[JohnR725]

Now

On 5/4/2025 at 3:45 PM, dnhb said:

balance assembly in a small pocket watch

One of the things that's always helpful when asking for help for any watch would be which watch exactly are we talking about? Because the definition of small pocket watch doesn't exactly do it for us. Do we have a name of who made the movement and typically that's not the name on the dial.

 

On 5/5/2025 at 2:41 AM, Nucejoe said:

Cheaper to replace this balance complete with a new one.

21 hours ago, dnhb said:

I can't see how that would be cheaper as I help my local charity shops on a pro bono basis. But of more interest to me would be to understand how to work out the specification of a replacement balance given that the chance of being able to order the part from the company or OEM must be effectively zero.

I find your quote really quite fascinating?

Lacking knowledge of the movement is quite a hindrance in this discussion. Then there are companies that make balance completes for replacing in watches. No need to try to order from the manufacturer as that isn't going to happen anyway.

Then I think it would be helpful to clarify something? You're helping the charity shop I'm understanding at the extreme the lowest price to achieve what goal? So in other words all you have to do is get the watch to run for a few seconds a few minutes long enough to sell it and clear it out and make a profit correct? What I'm getting at here is were going to throw conventional watch repair practices out the window and go with whatever we need to do which means you could just Glue with whatever you have. It's not the recommended procedure but I'm interpreting were not using the recommended procedures we want to do fast quick repairs I get these things out the door correct?

[AndyGSi]

1 hour ago, dnhb said:

so I've contacted the WEW Co. via it's website.

If you've just messaged them through the website then I'd be very surprised if they know anything about your watch.

Would be a lot easier to just post come photos of the movement and keyless works.

[dnhb]

On 5/5/2025 at 6:44 AM, caseback said:

The problem/challenge with these things is that you don't know what brilliant solutions previous watch-tinkerers have come up with. Are all parts even "original"? Did the watch run ok (-ish) when you got it?

One possibility is that a replacement staff has been fitted and turned out to be a loose fit. 

Some of this has been discussed in the following thread:

 

The watch was a non-runner when I was asked to look at it. I'm not able to say if its components are all original. Thank you for taking the trouble to dig out the thread which I found very informative.

2 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

If you've just messaged them through the website then I'd be very surprised if they know anything about your watch.

Would be a lot easier to just post come photos of the movement and keyless works.

I thought I should try to find some details about the watch that way rather than just rely on the good people here who have already helpfully answered my original question viz: are roller tables traditionally a friction fit.

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Then I think it would be helpful to clarify something? You're helping the charity shop I'm understanding at the extreme the lowest price to achieve what goal? So in other words all you have to do is get the watch to run for a few seconds a few minutes long enough to sell it and clear it out and make a profit correct? What I'm getting at here is were going to throw conventional watch repair practices out the window and go with whatever we need to do which means you could just Glue with whatever you have. It's not the recommended procedure but I'm interpreting were not using the recommended procedures we want to do fast quick repairs I get these things out the door correct?

I'm sorry if my previous posts have caused confusion. I don't charge the Charity Shop for my time or materials so neither "lowest price" nor "profit" is relevant. I will tell the shop to what condition I have been able to return the watch & advise whether I think they could hope to get a better price online rather than selling locally in declaring that condition. Naturally I aim to do work that is 'proper' - hence my question that initiated this thread - or at least reversible & explain what I have done & why. So "fast quick repairs" doesn't exactly apply either although I won't hold on to a watch beyond the point at which I'm making improvements or have the realistic prospect of doing so, for example as a result of advice I hope to receive from WRT colleagues. I do hope this clarification is helpful. Thank you for your interest.