What does this repeating timegrapher trace mean?

[Bill2024]

Hi all,

I have just cleaned and lubricated an Oris seven jewel pin pallet movement. It was not running on arrival and now, to be honest, I’m pretty pleased with how it’s running

 

but the timegrapher trace looks strange. The trace is a bit noisy and it seems there is a repeating pattern. It looks to me to be repeating every 5 or 6 seconds. Could this point to some issue with the escape wheel perhaps?

Im going to wear it for a while and see how the real life performance matches with the timegrapher results but it looks like somethings is t right so I’d like to at least understand it, even if I can’t fix it yet  

Grateful for any insights. Thanks. 

edit: I should have said that this trace is dial-up about 8 hours after a full wind and all positions have a similar pattern

Edited Wednesday at 04:48 PM by Bill2024

[mbwatch]

That is really fantastic performance for a 7 jewel pin pallet, nice work! 

Definitely the timegrapher trace points to something with the escape wheel. If you have been running the watch less than a day, let it run another 24 hours. A little periodic blip like that could be too much or too little lubrication on the escape wheel teeth if it has not distributed fully yet. Little disturbances to the trace like this often tend to smooth out after a couple of days running.

But if you have already been running it for a few days, the lubrication should be distributed. And this could then be just something like speck of dust on one escape wheel tooth or a tiny bit of debris or rust in one of the escape wheel pinion leaves. Since the disturbance lasts for 5 or 6 beats of the balance, I would look closely at the pinion leaves - that seems more like it is interfering with interaction between the escape pinion and 4th wheel than if it were interfering with the pallet stones and escape teeth.

[Bill2024]

45 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

 

That is really fantastic performance for a 7 jewel pin pallet, nice work! 

 

Thanks very much

 

45 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

Definitely the timegrapher trace points to something with the escape wheel. If you have been running the watch less than a day, let it run another 24 hours. A little periodic blip like that could be too much or too little lubrication on the escape wheel teeth if it has not distributed fully yet. Little disturbances to the trace like this often tend to smooth out after a couple of days running.

But if you have already been running it for a few days, the lubrication should be distributed. And this could then be just something like speck of dust on one escape wheel tooth or a tiny bit of debris or rust in one of the escape wheel pinion leaves. Since the disturbance lasts for 5 or 6 beats of the balance, I would look closely at the pinion leaves - that seems more like it is interfering with interaction between the escape pinion and 4th wheel than if it were interfering with the pallet stones and escape teeth.

It’s been running for a couple of days. I’ll let it run for another day and check it again - I think I was a bit clumsy with oiling the escape wheel teeth so maybe I overdid it. 

Very interesting information about the escape wheel pinion. I will take a close look at it (or as close as I can with a 12x loupe) and check for debris or rust.

The movement was completely filthy when I first opened it (hair, fibres and some small metal flakes which I think came from the ratchet wheel, which is missing a couple of teeth), so I may strip it down and clean it again!

I definitely want to get to know more about what the timegrapher says about what’s going on inside the movement, and not just how fast/slow it is running. 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Bill2024 said:

pin pallet

The problem with the escapement like this is it wears out with time. Often times when you look at the pins themselves you'll see worst-case almost notches cut into them as they do not hold up forever and will wear out.

Seeing as how it's keeping time to be honest I wouldn't worry about it at all.

 

 

 

[Bill2024]

9 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

The problem with the escapement like this is it wears out with time. Often times when you look at the pins themselves you'll see worst-case almost notches cut into them as they do not hold up forever and will wear out.

Seeing as how it's keeping time to be honest I wouldn't worry about it at all.

 

 

 

Ah OK I see. I know pin packets are not know for their longevity. 

I’m using this as more of a learning opportunity, but you’re right, if I just wanted to use it I probably would not worry too much. Hopefully I’ll still be able to use it when I’m done messing about with it

[Nucejoe]

What oil did you lubricated pins and escape teeth with ? 

It will keep time like this as long as oil is fresh and stay on pin pallets, and if it still  runs this good a year later, then you know pin pallets are in good shape. 

It is a rare and collectible piece.

Regs

[JohnR725]

14 hours ago, Bill2024 said:

repeating pattern

The problem with repeating patterns they can be hard to see on the conventional timing machine. This means that you either have to go to software-based in other words using a computer with software or typically expensive witschi timing machines. As they have other ways to display things like this.

 

[Bill2024]

4 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

What oil did you lubricated pins and escape teeth with ? 

It will keep time like this as long as oil is fresh and stay on pin pallets, and if it still  runs this good a year later, then you know pin pallets are in good shape. 

It is a rare and collectible piece.

Regs

I used some 9415 and applied it to the escape wheel teeth only - not the pins. I did every third tooth but probably ended up putting too much oil on each tooth. Thanks. 

Edited Thursday at 08:14 AM by Bill2024

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, Bill2024 said:

I used some 9415 and applied it to the escape wheel teeth only - not the pins. I did every third tooth but probably ended up putting too much oil on each tooth. Thanks. 

Great, 

Good chance enough 9415 is transfered from escape teeth to pins , to keep some oil where put. 

Oil tends to run down the pins.

Regs

 

[Bill2024]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

The problem with repeating patterns they can be hard to see on the conventional timing machine. This means that you either have to go to software-based in other words using a computer with software or typically expensive witschi timing machines. As they have other ways to display things like this.

 

Are there any software based timing solutions that are recommended?

50 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Great, 

Good chance enough 9415 is transfered from escape teeth to pins , to keep some oil where put. 

Oil tends to run down the pins.

Regs

 

Would it be best practice to use Fixodrop on the pins and escape wheel in this situation? I’ve never used it but have been looking into it recently. 

[tomh207]

I would have a look for PCTM watch timing software. We have an expert on this software as a member @praezis. Oh, there is a free version as well as pro level. No affiliation etc.

 

Tom

[nickelsilver]

1 hour ago, tomh207 said:

I would have a look for PCTM watch timing software. We have an expert on this software as a member @praezis. Oh, there is a free version as well as pro level. No affiliation etc.

 

Tom

I have the pro version from Frank (praezis). I use it with an old Vibrograf mic, and it's easily as good or better than my Witschi S1.

[Nucejoe]

7 hours ago, Bill2024 said:

Would it be best practice to use Fixodrop on the pins and escape wheel in this situation? I’ve never used it but have been looking into it recently. 

 I start with oiling escape teeth, but smallest amount  whilst observing  the amplitude on tg, and let the movement run for a few minutes, then add a bit more & repeat,  keep on  as long as I gain amplitude, stop where amplitude stops increasing with more oil. 

 I think this will ensure no oil spread on unintended/ nonfunctional sections, but only where pin and escape teeth engage so no extra oil,,  in attempt to avoid  later gumming out .

 I am not sure if this approach is the best. But I think if oil is only on engaging sections  it wouldn't gum unless the watch spends years in drawer. 

Reg

 

Edited Thursday at 06:21 PM by Nucejoe

[Bill2024]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

 I start with oiling escape teeth, but smallest amount  whilst observing  the amplitude on tg, and let the movement run for a few minutes, then add a bit more & repeat,  keep on  as long as I gain amplitude, stop where amplitude stops increasing with more oil.  Then add foxodrop.  I think this will ensure no oil spread on unintended/ nonfunctional sections, but only where pin and escape teeth engage so no extra oil,,  in attempt to avoid  later gumming out .

 I am not sure if this approach is the best. But I think if oil is only on engaging sections  it wouldn't gum unless the watch spends years in drawer. 

Reg

 

So you apply the Fixodrop after oiling? How do you apply it? Thanks. 

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, Bill2024 said:

So you apply the Fixodrop after oiling? How do you apply it? Thanks. 

 Sorry,   editted parts of different paragraph. 

Treat Foxodrop & carrier alchohal .

 

 

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, Bill2024 said:

So you apply the Fixodrop after oiling?

That would actually be very clever and it would probably wash off the lubrication. You're supposed to apply it to clean parts then let it run a little bit and then apply the lubrication.

10 hours ago, Bill2024 said:

Are there any software based timing solutions that are recommended?

Software-based timing solutions is a interesting term because you do require some hardware.

As the world of timing machines have gotten more complicated even things like which he timing machines that might appear to be a physical timing machine are not they're basically a PC running well the machine at work is running Windows CE. Which from time to time has to be rebooted because it decides it doesn't want to work.

Currently witschi decided that probably the intelligent move that they really not in the manufacturing and now they microphones with USB typically so expensive microphone because they have all sorts of nifty electronics buried in the thing and software in use apply the PC.

Then as this image was convenient here's an example of what I was talking about how other methods of showing things can show things.This image was convenient I have others that are way more dramatic but you can see the effect of the gear train having some power fluctuations not bad though for 17 size vintage Elgin watch. In any case you can see the effect of the power and the gear train producing Uneven power and yes all gear trains are going to do this to a certain degree it's just the way they work and then we can see the output changes a little bit but not enough to be really concerned about for watch like this. Then the lift angle is probably not correct for this particular watch either

So basically for any software you get your going to need a microphone and that will require some electronics fortunately some other people making software grasp this and they will supply a microphone.

 

Here's a program that I've used. This is their US websites I do find websites for timing machine software or even timing machines quite interesting because apparently whoever comes here is supposed to grasp everything about whatever it is there purchasing where typically they may not especially if the software has enhanced features.

https://www.etimer.net/

Then we have PCTM As you see highly recommended by others on the group. I think you going to need the enhanced version which you have to pay for I only have the free version. Frank's website is a bit hard to find and does seem to lack pretty pictures and descriptions of how the software works although he does of a PDF that explains this if you could find his website that is.

 

 

[Bill2024]

14 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

ere's a program that I've used. This is their US websites I do find websites for timing machine software or even timing machines quite interesting because apparently whoever comes here is supposed to grasp everything about whatever it is there purchasing where typically they may not especially if the software has enhanced features.

https://www.etimer.net/

I contacted these guys in the UK and they can either supply a clip on mic to go with their software, or they’ll modify an existing microphone you send them, or they can supply a refurbished and modified microphone.  

14 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Then we have PCTM As you see highly recommended by others on the group. I think you going to need the enhanced version which you have to pay for I only have the free version. Frank's website is a bit hard to find and does seem to lack pretty pictures and descriptions of how the software works although he does of a PDF that explains this if you could find his website that is.

Does any know where to find this software?  I found various old threads, with links that don’t work anymore, but no website for the product. 

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, Bill2024 said:

Does any know where to find this software?  I found various old threads, with links that don’t work anymore, but no website for the product. 

Yes the problem of finding the software this is because he does not have a website he has the files in the file directory someplace so finding it becomes extremely challenging if not impossible. He should be here but is not? Try sending a private message to Frank @praezis It's his software he should bill a tell you worries currently hiding it.

[nickelsilver]

I don't think @praezis / Frank actually has a website. If you want his software message him and you'll get the info. I've used Witschi LCD and Vibrograf paper machines since last century, and it really is the best of both worlds. Picks up anything, however dirty (looking at you Witschi), with a readable result.

 

If you pay for the pro, it tells you exactly where the poise error is for dynamic poising, and it's damn accurate. I can't speak highly enough about this software. Some mics don't work, some do, you might have to solder something, but in all the above Frank can help with a solution. And it's unbelievably affordable.