Adjusting regulator pins angle

[BobG]

When I remove the balance assembly I open the pins on the regulator to give the spring room. When I install a new balance assembly what angle do I set the pins to?  What do I use as a guide and how should they be positioned in relation to the spring? 
I’ve noticed that too open or too closed has an impact on rate adjustment. Can the pin angle to the spring also efffct amplitude? 

[mbwatch]

Are you talking about opening the pins on an older watch having just two pins and no regulator boot? I would not recommend touching them at all when removing the balance complete. It should come free of them without interference. And when reinstalling the balance complete, a good hairspring should drop right between them without issue. Maybe land beside but lifting the spring over the pins should cause it to snap into place.

The pins must be parallel to each other and should usually be perpendicular to the balance cock.

If they are too far apart, you will have rate issues in vertical positions and wild rate variance at low amplitudes. And if they are not parallel, rates will vary between horizontal positions.

[BobG]

Watch is new, Seiko Etachron regulator.  Maybe I’ll just leave it as is and replace the balance.  The pins are parallel but nit perpendicular to the cock . Almost perpendicular but not quite. 

[Kalanag]

If the rates difference DU and DD are inbetween 5 seconds leave it alone.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, BobG said:

Seiko Etachron regulator.

 

3 hours ago, BobG said:

what angle do I set the pins to

Unfortunately there's not a specific angle.

What you're supposed to do is use the stud to rotate the hairspring and centered between the regulator pins. In the regulator pins would be closed but not tight there has to be a little bit a play. If they're too far apart you will notice a timing issue. In other words your timing will be affected by amplitude.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

For me the rate adjustment elements are secondary to having the hairspring set correctly with the balance. 

Things to check beforehand would be that the hairspring is centered with the balance jewel, and that the regulator arm tracks the hairspring's terminal curve through the arm's arc movements when adjusting the rate. Hairspring centering is quite easy to see, looking down on the balance, the coils will have nice even spaces, so no bunching up of them, if there is then that needs to be delt with first. If the terminal curve is good and the rate arm tracks it well then its ok to start adjusting the regulation pins. Setting them close, with the spring at rest sitting in the middle with a very small gap at each side of it, with the gaps adding up to a total of about the hairspring thickness ( half thickness at each side ). 

[mbwatch]

8 hours ago, BobG said:

Watch is new, Seiko Etachron regulator.

Oh well then that is a completely different matter!

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Oh well then that is a completely different matter!

the classic problem of not having a photograph or a model of a watch. Then the answers may or may not actually agree with the original question.

 

[BobG]

It is an Etachron regulation system. What I learned is that to adjust the movement before regulation you place the regulator in the middle of the terminal curve. Next open the regulator pins by twisting  the block so they are basically perpendicular to the center arbor. Then after placing the stud in its holder twist the stud (miniscule amount) so that the spring is centered between the regulator pins. The regulator arm should be able to move the entire length of the terminal curve without widening or compressing any coild gaps.  The final step is to slowly twist the regulator block counter-clockwise to get the spring to just sit toward the inside pin.  There actually is an expensive $40 tool for twisting teh stud and the regulator block. My understanding is this is called adjusting the movement and something that every profesional watchmaker does before trying to regulate it. 

[Kalanag]

On 3/22/2025 at 5:08 AM, BobG said:

…The pins are parallel but not perpendicular to the cock…

That‘s what I thought is your problem…

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 3/23/2025 at 12:38 AM, BobG said:

It is an Etachron regulation system. What I learned is that to adjust the movement before regulation you place the regulator in the middle of the terminal curve. Next open the regulator pins by twisting  the block so they are basically perpendicular to the center arbor. Then after placing the stud in its holder twist the stud (miniscule amount) so that the spring is centered between the regulator pins. The regulator arm should be able to move the entire length of the terminal curve without widening or compressing any coild gaps.  The final step is to slowly twist the regulator block counter-clockwise to get the spring to just sit toward the inside pin.  There actually is an expensive $40 tool for twisting teh stud and the regulator block. My understanding is this is called adjusting the movement and something that every profesional watchmaker does before trying to regulate it. 

Good explanation Bob, the important bit is that the regulation pins - whatever design they are- should not interfere with the hairspring's position when its centered . The centering of it over the balance jewel should be down to how it is held at each end - the pinning at the stud and at the collet . More often than not the problems are at the stud pinning point, less so at the collet in my experience. But how it exits the collet is equally important.  Opposing bends at the stud and the collet , I suppose would fight against each other. Though the hairspring looks centered, i think it would be under tension, so not in a relaxed state. Regulation would be done after those corrections are made. Strange that you mention having the hairspring resting on the inside pin, I've heard that before, I think it was JohnR725 that said some watchmakers favour that position. Interested to know why that is, i can't say I've ever done it , but could probably understand the reasons why.

[rehajm]

 

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Strange that you mention having the hairspring resting on the inside pin, I've heard that before, I think it was JohnR725 that said some watchmakers favour that position

I believe he worked in a shop where he was told to adjust to that position, yes?

I’m trying to restore function to a Seikosha banana movement where it’s clear that position was a factory setting. The inside pin sits a great distance from the outside post and is so long it could never be drawn close together…

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

Ooophh , that looks a mess. Can see some portion of the pin has been brought parallel with the boot. It is long , as seen by the bent up boot closer .

Should be smooth ( inner surface at least ) , straight, parallel with the boot and the correct length. 

[rehajm]

I’ve seen images where it looks like that upward (downward?) bend on the boot cap is supposed to be there. If so straightening the pin would place the tip outside the tip of the boot…

…looking at it now I’m wondering if the spring could sit tight between the pin and the little gap where the boot bends?

[Neverenoughwatches]

but is it really supposed to be like that ? It might be functional, but could it be better, it's definitely not pretty. Looks heavily messed about with ...unless factory quality control was off work that day lol.

[rehajm]

15 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

but is it really supposed to be like that

...there’s not much information out there about details in these early Seiko movements. It’s possible and it would look better if that is not the original pin and the boot cap were flat, however other images of this movement and the observation this one wasn’t harassed much over it’s lifetime I think the regulator is all original, so straightening that pin makes it too long for the boot cap. 
 

…it may be some of these movements are more Moeris with Seikosha influence. It could be the guys at the Seiko factory were still shell shocked from the war and came up with stuff like this …

Edited March 24 by rehajm

[Neverenoughwatches]

Who knows . If it were me though, I'd be looking to straighten things out and shorten the pin to fit neatly under the boot in your picture .Providing the rest of the balance accomodated it....you could correct it and make it look all pretty..to have it then run like " a bag of shite " . Something I'd want to weigh up first before doing its makeover.

[nickelsilver]

One of my teachers worked in a Seiko service center and the factory instruction was to have the hairspring remain in contact with the pin at all amplitudes. JLC went further on some calibers having only only one "pin", with the spring always in contact.

 

But in most cases with a flat hairspring you want the gap about 1.5-2x the spring thickness, with the spring well centered for best results.

 

 

 

Edited March 24 by nickelsilver