Help With Extracting A Mechanism Please?

[Hullblazer]

Hi all

 

This item is in my "photograph and list" eBay pile as it runs (duration of wind and accuracy not tested) but I cannot access the mechanism in order to photograph it.

 

The more I look at this beggar, the more I want to know about it.

 

The case seems built around the mechanism but I know this can't be the case.  I cannot access anything like a winder-release but it is patently obvious the winder must be removed in order to remove the workings.  Can anyone help?

 

Also, the case has tarnished just as silver would but (obv.) any hallmark would be on the inside.  In case of never being able to see the inside, how do I confirm it is silver?

 

In case opening the item is beyond me, does anyone recognise this watch, or have any related info they might share?  This watch is SO frustrating that I may just clean it (if I can get at it), polish it (once I've learned how) and use it as my collection-start-piece!  If so, an old-style, leather strap, yes?

 

Thanking all in advance!

 

Peter

[JimInOz]

Pics of the caseback and the caseback edges in high clarity will be the only way for us to assist you.

 

It's a converted pocket watch, so highly likely that there is a snap back cover on the back of the case, and also another dust cover below that.

 

These can usually be opened with a finger nail, but older watches may need a case knife or heavy razor blade to tempt them.

 

Or maybe just say "open sesame!".

 

Cheers

 

Jim.

[Hullblazer]

Thanks Jim, I'll post a back-pick when at home after work.

 

However, I can't see anything even like a seam around the reverse.  A closer look and picks later ;-)

[Geo]

I think you may find if you gently ease out of the case by gently prying upwards at the 9 o'clock position, but not on the enamel dial or it will chip. The movement should come away leaving the winding stem (square drive) and the setting pin still in the case.

DONT FORCE ANYTHING!

[Hullblazer]

Thank you - I'll give that a go too, and post later!

[Hullblazer]

AS promised - seam-free case reverse... and that mechanisms in there solid: with force up to but not including "scared of damage", no dice!

[bobm12]

Gosh, only two tools come to mind:

 

 

 

Tough one for me though!

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

 

PS. What about Geo's suggestion....from the top? Let us know the end result!

[Hullblazer]

Have given Geo's idea a go but there's no give at all and pressure I feel happy to apply.  "Watch this space" on eBay, if I keep it my curiosity is going to render it right twice a day...

[frenchie]

Interesting...

And there is no way to remove the stem ?

[Hullblazer]

The stem does pull, but not lock, out and feels as if spring retained.  At no point can you see the stem, only the crown and this does not seem to unscrew.  There may well be a retaining mechanism in the workings of the watch but here we meet Catch 22...

[Marc]

Try holding the stem out against the spring tension, and with the watch upside down give it a gentle shake.

It might just be that the spring loaded stem is what is holding the movement in the case and by pulling it out it disengages from the movement.

Make sure your hand is underneath to catch the movement if this is right.

[Hullblazer]

Sorry, nope.  Crown out as far as poss and shaking like a teenager asking for condoms; there's no shifting the mechanism.  In fact, it rattles as much in the case with the crown in as out.

 

Honestly, it's as bad as a chinese-finger-trap!

[frenchie]

shaking like a teenager asking for condoms

I almost spit out my lunch laughing :) 

My colleagues are looking at me funny...

 

You don't see a hinge anywhere inside the case, correct ?

[Hullblazer]

Glad to brighten your lunch-hour!

 

Nope, no hinge:  Just the glass that pops-off and allows acces to the face.  I'm thinking the only way into the mechanism is through removing hands and face...  This is not happening as it runs, keeps good time and currently has an owner with sausage fingers and little experience!

[frenchie]

Removing hands is possible, but I'm not so sure about the face... it's often attached to the movement by some contraption (screws) that are accessible through the back of the movement... back to your catch 22 :)

[cdjswiss]

You have a Borgel cased watch - could be quite valuable, see :

 

http://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/borgel.php

 

Normally the bezel and crystal are fixed to the movement ring and the whole assembly : bezel plus movement ring plus movement is removed by pulling out the crown and unscrewing this assembly. The link above will make this clearer.

 

In your watch the bezel has come away from the movement ring and so you must try to gently turn the movement plus its ring by using a soft pad after removing the hands. Remember to pull out the crown otherwise the movement is locked. by the half stem.

 

If the little pin that locates the bezel is still in place you can replace the bezel and use that for turning the assembly.

 

This is how it will look when the movement is out. You can see the half stem in the case and the threaded movement ring.

 

Edited December 1, 2015 by cdjswiss

[Geo]

Excellent information Colin, it's not a type I've worked on.

[cdjswiss]

George, you have missed a lot! There are some nice Borgels on eBay at present offered by a Canadian seller from whom I have bought in the past.

[frenchie]

This is great information, thank you !

[Hullblazer]

That's brilliant, Thank you!

[Hullblazer]

I now have the mechanism free, Thank you!  It's beautiful!

 

Unfiurtunately "We've" discussed it and it will now be eBayed, due to impending car insurance (goes off, grumbling)...

[cdjswiss]

If and when you do remove the movement you discover that the case is pre-1912, you have an original François Borgel case; more valuable than the later ones made by his daughter Louisa. But even these are not to be sniffed at!

Edited December 1, 2015 by cdjswiss

[JimInOz]

You have a Borgel cased watch - could be quite valuable, see :

 

http://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/borgel.php

 

Normally the bezel and crystal are fixed to the movement ring and the whole assembly : bezel plus movement ring plus movement is removed by pulling out the crown and unscrewing this assembly. The link above will make this clearer.

 

In your watch the bezel has come away from the movement ring and so you must try to gently turn the movement plus its ring by using a soft pad after removing the hands. Remember to pull out the crown otherwise the movement is locked. by the half stem.

 

If the little pin that locates the bezel is still in place you can replace the bezel and use that for turning the assembly.

 

This is how it will look when the movement is out. You can see the half stem in the case and the threaded movement ring.

 

Borgel.jpg

 

Excellent result.

 

I should have used my eyes a bit more, then I would have thought about these notches 

 

[cdjswiss]

You got there before me. Its a 1914/15 London hallmarked Borgel imported by George Stockwell.

[Geo]

George, you have missed a lot! There are some nice Borgels on eBay

I did know what a Borgel case Colin, it's the fact it just looked like a screw bezel that threw me. One if these days I will probably get around to working on one, but right at this minute I'm trying to refrain from buying any more watches. Thanks for the heads up anyway.