My first Waltham

[Neverenoughwatches]

Eyup wonderful watch folk, as the title states, this is my first Waltham. A silver pocket watch of which I need to do a little researching of. It is running , though not unwinding much before stopping, my first real introduction to a nicely made pocketwatch. 

[RichardHarris123]

You'll be able to look up the serial number on the pocket watch database. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

20 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

You'll be able to look up the serial number on the pocket watch database. 

Thank Rich, i have used that site a few times when looking for other people.

[nevenbekriev]

Hi Rich, these are nice watches, well made. You will be surprised by the barrel construction.

[AndyGSi]

Looking at the hallmarks I'd say 1924.

[mikepilk]

Welcome to the Waltham club Rich !

I started on pocket watches - especially Waltham. Bigger watches = easier fiddling.

I have a small collection of eight Waltham, including a 620 like yours. You will be surprised how well made they are, and how accurate they are with those big balances. And push in balance staffs on some, so easy !

As Nev says, the barrel/mainsprings can be interesting. This was before I had a mainspring winder, so I hand wound most in - quite tough on the fingers given the size of the springs. 

I found the jewels were often broken, but replacements were not hard to find (e.g. Dave's)

My favourite is a 1903 Waltham Riverside 19J (you will notice similar features on yours). When I'd serviced it, I bought an Albert chain and wore it to work for a week. It was more accurate than my mate's new Omega Seamaster (which itself was <2s/day).

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

Looking at the hallmarks I'd say 1924.

Thanks Andy, the production run on that 1908 model serial number is estimated to 1919, so a little discrepancy with the case date. Unless it was sat on a shelf in either UK or USA stores waiting to be ordered and cased up, I will check to see if the case has any numbers relevant to the movement.

15 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Welcome to the Waltham club Rich !

I started on pocket watches - especially Waltham. Bigger watches = easier fiddling.

I have a small collection of eight Waltham, including a 620 like yours. You will be surprised how well made they are, and how accurate they are with those big balances. And push in balance staffs on some, so easy !

As Nev says, the barrel/mainsprings can be interesting. This was before I had a mainspring winder, so I hand wound most in - quite tough on the fingers given the size of the springs. 

I found the jewels were often broken, but replacements were not hard to find (e.g. Dave's)

My favourite is a 1903 Waltham Riverside 19J (you will notice similar features on yours). When I'd serviced it, I bought an Albert chain and wore it to work for a week. It was more accurate than my mate's new Omega Seamaster (which itself was <2s/day).

Thanks Mike, the movements just look so quality compared to nearly all the Swiss stuff I've worked on. Yet to view it in detail with magnification. 

[mikepilk]

38 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thanks Andy, the production run on that 1908 model serial number is estimated to 1919, so a little discrepancy with the case date. Unless it was sat on a shelf in either UK or USA stores waiting to be ordered and cased up, I will check to see if the case has any numbers relevant to the movement.

Another great thing with pocket watches is that they are so easy to re-case. A 16s pocket watch will fit in any 16s case (with a few exceptions). So the case may not be original. 

41 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thanks Mike, the movements just look so quality compared to nearly all the Swiss stuff I've worked on. Yet to view it in detail with magnification. 

Due to the mechanised production methods the US pocket watches were generally better than most Swiss watches of the time. There are examples (quite collectable) of Swiss watches trying to pass themselves off as US pocket watches. 

[mbwatch]

Scrolling along, your last photo came as such a surprise to me, as I am not used to seeing an American watch like this with an English-style dial like that. The broad blocky Romans; you'd never find a dial like this on a Waltham over here.

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

You will be surprised by the barrel construction.

Surprised is not what I think when I think of Waltham mainspring barrel. Then they can get more interesting if it's the Waltham jeweled barrel.  

 

2 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Scrolling along, your last photo came as such a surprise to me, as I am not used to seeing an American watch like this with an English-style dial like that. The broad blocky Romans; you'd never find a dial like this on a Waltham over here.

What about the hallmarks in the case isn't that more of an English thing also? Both Waltham and Elgin exported oh block of watches especially to United Kingdom where they actually had a distributor. Elgin got even more creative with their exported watches as they sometimes don't look like American pocket watches that are more like three-quarter plate watches. Many times the only have the serial number and on rare occasions the England distributor will actually engrave their name on it hinting that they actually made this watch when they did not. So basically United Kingdom should have a lot of Waltham and Elgin watches if you know what you're looking for.

 

4 hours ago, mikepilk said:

As Nev says, the barrel/mainsprings can be interesting. This was before I had a mainspring winder, so I hand wound most in - quite tough on the fingers given the size of the springs. 

The other thing that makes the Waltham mainspring barrel interesting is the mainspring itself. Yes it has a hole in the end nice and simple except it's not. Rather than explaining I have a PDF which explains the problem. Yes it really is helpful to modify the end of the spring otherwise it's wishful thinking that the hole is going to go where it's supposed to.

 

 

 

HT_August2016_MembersOnly The Waltham Hole-p22-24.pdf

[mbwatch]

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

What about the hallmarks in the case isn't that more of an English thing also

I definitely noticed the hallmarks but assumed assay was just part of import requirements (or the case was English made to begin with)

[tomh207]

10 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

I definitely noticed the hallmarks but assumed assay was just part of import requirements (or the case was English made to begin with)

The case could quite easily be English seeing that Dennison was an English company based in Birmingham who later opened shop in the USA.

 

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

There are no serial numbers on the case itself that tie it to the movement, which would have been nice. Only a matching caseback and bezel four digit code for those two pieces of the case. So the 5 year production difference between the movement and case could have a few explanations.

2 hours ago, tomh207 said:

The case could quite easily be English seeing that Dennison was an English company based in Birmingham who later opened shop in the USA.

 

Tom

If the case is original then its likely that it would have been made in the UK as standard to avoid the import duty of precious metals. Providing that this watch was made for UK export and not carried into the UK by its owner. I thought since it's assayed here then it was made here. 

[AndyGSi]

If the case was imported then it would have the import mark.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, mbwatch said:

I definitely noticed the hallmarks but assumed assay was just part of import requirements (or the case was English made to begin with)

It could be either, but doesn't make sense to have the case made overseas and have to pay an import duty. Unless the buyer specifically requested the case to be made by Dennison in America and then assayed in the UK after importation, that just seems like a crazy idea. So almost certainly had the case made in the UK. Interesting that you mention the dial style is not synonymous with American owned pocketwatches. The dial has Made in USA under the bezel edge besides along with the Waltham name at the top. Another inducation that it was specifically aimed at the UK market that was used to that style of dial marking.

7 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

If the case was imported then it would have the import mark.

Thats new to me Andy , I didn't know assaying towns had a seperate import stamp. Its been worth the thread for that information alone

You have me digging out my hallmark book now forca thorough re-read

[mbwatch]

10 hours ago, tomh207 said:

The case could quite easily be English seeing that Dennison was an English company based in Birmingham who later opened shop in the USA.

I had to look at the history, because Aaron Dennison (American) was a world traveler and his name ended up in or on a lot of American, some Swiss, and apparently at least one English company. Wikipedia says the Birmingham Dennison Watch Case Company was the supplier for Waltham's London office.

 

7 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The dial has Made in USA under the bezel edge besides along with the Waltham name at the top

This is especially interesting because while I would expect "Made in USA" it to be under the name, having stamped it elsewhere does seem like an indication it actually was made over here. I haven't seen another dial like that for sale.

[tomh207]

It all very convoluted stuff, I seem to have the idea that Dennison Birmingham also provided watch case for the early Rolex company when it was London based . They definitely had a very good reputation by all accounts.

 

Tom

[JohnR725]

I thought I would remind everybody of something. Typically when buying a pocket watch we assume it comes with a case but in the early days of American pocket watches they did not come with a case. There were several reasons for this initially the watch companies were not in the manufacturing cases for their watches. Then there other companies manufacturing cases so when you purchased your pocket watch you picked out the movement and Then you can pick your choice of cases. This was true in the early days at some point time they would start the case up their watches but not right away.

So knowing of this more than likely the movements were exported without a case. Then there were cased up in the UK and I don't know one other parts the world how they handle that. I do know they had export agents quite a few countries including the UK.

Oh and then of course there's the other problem with pocket watch cases they wear out with time and often times people will swap from case to case. A lot of times if you look at the outer edge where the case holding screws go you'll see that there'll be other marks where they be another movement had been the case before.

 

[tomh207]

@JohnR725 indeed, my grandfather told me of when his father took him to a jewellers shop to get a watch for his 21st, something of a family tradition, he got to choose his watch, dial, hands and case also whether to have the jewellers name on the dial. This is a Swiss movement and a Dennison star case. In different conversations over the years I do remember him telling me of people replacing worn or damaged cases. I do think that in this modern world we forget that at one time watches really weren’t the remit of hobbyists but an important day to day tool.

 

Tom

[mbwatch]

I've been combing ebay tonight and while I have found a couple of block Roman dials like yours, they are a teacup spilled in the ocean compared to the more common thin Romans and various typical Arabic numeral styles. Now I'm going to want to build a watch with one of these. I dislike the tall, thin Roman numerals on most American watches but these have a nice presence.

A 12 size including "U.S.A", a 16 size without it, and also an Elgin (I found even fewer Elgins overall)