Cortebert cal 677 - runs good when not worn..

[Neverenoughwatches]

21 minutes ago, Knebo said:

IF you have a good smartphone camera, there's a faster and easier alternative to this approach: take a (super) slow-motion video of the balance (at any amplitude/wind) with your phone. If needed, you can use a 5x loupe and hold it in front of the camera lens to magnify. Now watch the video and assess the degrees of the swing. Focus on one of the spokes and wait until it stops to swing the other direction -- follow the spoke until it stops again (to change direction again). For example, if the spoke makes 1.5 full turns, that's 360° x 1.5 = 540°. Now you divide by two, so 540° / 2 = 270° amplitude. Once you've determined the correct amplitude, you adjust the lift angle on your timegrapher until it  shows the correct amplitude.

I tried that once, could i hell as make out what was going on maybe my crap ancient phone or the dodgy app i used . Not as much fun as watching two glow in the darks come together,  and if that isn't a double-entendre....i dont know what is

[Knebo]

4 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I tried that once, could i hell as make out what was going on maybe my crap ancient phone or the dodgy app i used . Not as much fun as watching two glow in the darks come together,  and if that isn't a double-entendre....i dont know what is

Yes, really depends on your phone. Mine does lovely videos. I take them even if I know the lift angle. 

I can't argue with the fun of watching glow-in-the-dark dots, though

[Neverenoughwatches]

11 minutes ago, apandersP said:

I will check into calculating the lift angle, when I get the new balance.

The beat error adjustment, is done by turning the collet, unfortunately it doesn’t have the other type. 
 

I checked and compared the original and the new balance staff to each other, and the visual looks the same. 
 

But to be sure, before I order a new one. I found it this way. 
 

Cousin didn’t have one in stock, so I found one on eBay. But the cousin number doesn’t match up with the one from eBay (the one I’ve got) but the seller shows me this, therefore I bought it. And they looks to be the same. 
 

I’m pretty confident that it’s the right one I’ve got, but just wanna be sure, so I maybe/maybe not order another wrong part. 

If that is what is in the container then that is what your getting. Refresh my memory what balance jewel setting do you have ?

Fixed stud carrier, non shock safe balance jewels

[AndyGSi]

21 minutes ago, apandersP said:

Cousin didn’t have one in stock, so I found one on eBay. But the cousin number doesn’t match up with the one from eBay (the one I’ve got) but the seller shows me this, therefore I bought it. And they looks to be the same. 

That's a Renata Generic one but the number is correct so should be OK as a None INCA Balance.

Edited October 7, 2024 by AndyGSi

[apandersP]

6 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

If that is what is in the container then that is what your getting. Refresh my memory what balance jewel setting do you have ?

I’ve got the non incabloc version.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Yes, really depends on your phone. Mine does lovely videos. I take them even if I know the lift angle. 

I can't argue with the fun of watching glow-in-the-dark dots, though

I dont argue, more diplomatic persuation towards my way of thinking . My missus says thats bordering coercive behaviour , i say shut up and put the bloody kettle on

7 minutes ago, apandersP said:

I’ve got the non incabloc version.

 

I the one you ordered is in good nick..... then i think you are good to go when it arrives matey . Keep us informed,  I'm sure i have this movement lurking somewhere, Cortebert, quality movements, again one of the chosen ATP makers.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, apandersP said:

The other issue is, that I can’t find any information in the caliber lift angle.. all other movements I’ve worked on, I was able to look it up online. 

usually this question comes up with vintage pocket watches but the answer is still the same. Lift angle is only important if you have a newfangled timing machine to measure amplitude. So when watches were made without those newfangled timing machines there was typically no reason to  list a lift angle. Then have you ever noticed how the timing machine defaults to 52°? It should be just fine. It's only when visually whatever you're seeing with the balance wheel does not agree with the timing machine if you're concerned then you can figure it out. It's actually very very easy to do you don't even need a smart phone or anything. There's even a video that explains you just need to put a Mark on the balance wheel that you can see. Then you slowly wind the watch up to 180° and set the timing machine to agree with whatever you're seeing. Personally I like to put something that fluoresces under a UV light as I find that a lot easier to see than a dark Mark on the balance wheel

 

then the other weird mystery of lack of parts list sort of? I have a link below which does list all the parts and gives you cross references for those parts. If you had access to a US material house and were friendly with one of them you could ask about the bestfit part number as they typically don't list those online you would have to ask. but even without that it's still nice as it gives you cross reference of parts.

Then cousins was unhelpful as we do get PDFs but no parts list or pictures of parts. Then don't even think about a service manual more than likely it never existed in the first place but there must of the parts list if the parts are available or were listed at the link below.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=CORT_677

 

2567_Cortebert 429,451,571,575.pdf

[Knebo]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Then have you ever noticed how the timing machine defaults to 52°? It should be just fine.

Yes, most of the time, you'll be in the right ball-park (i.e. lift angle is +/- 3 degrees from 52).

But there are other examples (e.g. Vostok 2414A with 42 degrees). And also examples, especially with older and less common vintage movements (1950s and earlier) where the lists you find online may be wrong. I recently had my hands on a Jaeger LeCoultre 489 where WatchGuy.co.uk said the lift angle would be 40°, but in reality it was around 60°. Huge difference in amplitude readings.

The slow-motion videos can also be helpful in fault-finding. For example, I currently have a "patient" where the hairspring touches the centre wheel. Very easy to see in the slow-mo.

[oldhippy]

I know my eyesight isn't what it should be, to me the hairspring doesn't look correct, looking at the top of the balance cock it doesn't look right behind the hairspring stud. The center wheel isn't  jeweled, have you checked for wear pivots must be smooth. 

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, Knebo said:

But there are other examples (e.g. Vostok 2414A with 42 degrees). And also examples, especially with older and less common vintage movements (1950s and earlier) where the lists you find online may be wrong. I recently had my hands on a Jaeger LeCoultre 489 where WatchGuy.co.uk said the lift angle would be 40°, but in reality it was around 60°. Huge difference in amplitude readings.

as I typically work on pocket watches of those that I've measured the lowest appears to be 35° with the highest being 62°.  But typically I just don't worry about the lift angle. I'm more concerned about that the amplitude dial up and dial down should be identical as long as the rate is identical. As soon as you go to one of the pendant positions of course the amplitude will drop but it should be consistent across all of them and I just don't get excited over whatever the amplitude is as long as the watch is still running and keeping time 24 hour  later..

The only time I really get excited is when I see a low amplitude on the timing machine and the balance wheel looks like it's doing much much better than that that I might get curious and see what it is so that I become happier seeing better numbers on the timing machine but otherwise  it's not really a life or death situation except maybe on this groupware if you don't get some magical high number you're in big trouble..

then for anyone that gets really obsessed you really need to purchase one of these. Because the best way to measure amplitude is not by listening to the timing machine sounds it's optically and here's a timing machine that does that. With the added bonus it will actually tell you what the lift angle is  so for those really obsessed with getting your amplitude right this is what you absolutely must have.

https://www.witschi.com/en/products/wisioscope-2/

 

 

[apandersP]

I will order a new balance complete, and keep you guys updated from there. Thanks a lot! I appreciate the help! 

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 10/7/2024 at 2:04 PM, Knebo said:

Yes, most of the time, you'll be in the right ball-park (i.e. lift angle is +/- 3 degrees from 52).

But there are other examples (e.g. Vostok 2414A with 42 degrees). And also examples, especially with older and less common vintage movements (1950s and earlier) where the lists you find online may be wrong. I recently had my hands on a Jaeger LeCoultre 489 where WatchGuy.co.uk said the lift angle would be 40°, but in reality it was around 60°. Huge difference in amplitude readings.

The slow-motion videos can also be helpful in fault-finding. For example, I currently have a "patient" where the hairspring touches the centre wheel. Very easy to see in the slow-mo.

I found an Oris 291 Pin pallet to be somewhere around 65°.... waiting for someone else to perform the same visual check to verify my findings. To me knowing the exact lift angle isn't so much a thing but just visually noting an approximate amplitude to know basically what a movement's health is and then strive towards  improving that using the default setting.....I'm perfectly happy with that if the time keeping and reserve consistently good .