Cortebert cal 677 - runs good when not worn..

[apandersP]

Hello. I’ve just serviced one of my watches. It’s a lovely Cortebert with the cal 677. 
 

Got it at a non runner, and it was due to the balance pivot broken (it’s the 677 without incabloc) - so i changed out the balance complete with a new one (NOS)

I can’t get the beat error under 1.3… but the watch is running almost perfect for three days just laying on the bench. But after 10 minutes of wearing, it loosing time a lot. And suddenly stops. With a shake it starts again. 
 

Could it be me, not cleaning good enough? Just got a ultrasoniccleaner (after cleaning it by hand) 

Should I try services it again? After cleaning again, with my new three jar method in the ultrasonic cleaner?  

JAR 1 - Cleaning in Zippo lighter fluid

JAR 2 - Rinse in IPA

JAR 3 - Rinse in IPA. 
 

All steps is 15 minutes and 30-40 degrees Celsius… 

Or should I look somewhere else? 
 

I recognized today, than when I let the power out of the mainspring, I can do that almost without holding the stem with my hand… it’s unwind very slow and not as normal. 

The mainspring is the old type, and not the s shaped type. 

[nevenbekriev]

Well, it is may be time for You to understand that if a watch ticks without stopping for 24 hours and keeps time on the table, this still means nothing. If You look at the other threads, people talk about amplitude, position errors and so on, in wound state and after 24 hours...

[AndyGSi]

There's a lot of questions here.

Did you get the correct balance complete, how does it oscillate, what does the timegrapher show?

[apandersP]

5 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

There's a lot of questions here.

Did you get the correct balance complete, how does it oscillate, what does the timegrapher show?

Yea. I know that’s a lot of questions, sorry. Just tried to tell as much informations as possible, so it maybe was easier to diagnose. 
I did get the correct balance complete. It runs freely. I’ve got two photos of the timegrapher. 
 

It shows low on amplitude.  

one where is just placed the balance complete to the balance cock. And after some regulations. It doesn’t have the beat error regulation pin as some movement does. 

[Nucejoe]

 How did you clean the fork pallets?  Shellac dissolves  in zippo fluid and gets washed  away in ultrasonic, so you are likely to have lost enough shellac, which has let fork pallets loose thus misaligned. 

CHECK IF FORK PALLETS ARE MISALIGNED.

Or show a top view close up of pallets in the watch.

 Check end shake on  balance staff , fork arbour and escape wheel, in case of excessive end shakes they can be unlevel to each other and disengage in some positions.

Rgds

[apandersP]

1 minute ago, Nucejoe said:

 How did you clean the fork pallets?  Shellac dissolves  in zippo fluid and gets washed  away in ultrasonic, so you are likely to have lost enough shellac, which has let fork pallets loose thus misaligned. 

CHECK IF FORK PALLETS ARE MISALIGNED.

Or show a top view close up of pallets in the watch.

 Check end shake on  balance staff , fork arbour and escape wheel, in case of excessive end shakes they can be unlevel to each other and disengage in some positions.

Rgds

I didn’t clean pallet fork or balance in the zippo fluid. I cleaned that parts in one dip.

I will check for end play. I just don’t know how much is allowed? 
 

[Nucejoe]

53 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Did you get the correct balance complete.

1 hour ago, apandersP said:

 the watch is running almost perfect for three days just laying on the bench. But after 10 minutes of wearing, it loosing time a lot. And suddenly stops. With a shake it starts again. 

 

14 minutes ago, apandersP said:

I didn’t clean pallet fork or balance in the zippo fluid. I cleaned that parts in one dip.

I will check for end play. I just don’t know how much is allowed? 

Escape teeth & fork pallets should be level in one plane, so they can engage to transfer energy/ motion.  In case end shakes are excessive they ( fork pallets and escape teeth) can move out of level.

Check if roller table rubs on fork horns in any position.

Edited October 5, 2024 by Nucejoe
Correction

[apandersP]

Thanks a lot and thanks for the patience. I really try to find out my self before asking in here. I will check and double check everything. 

[Nucejoe]

15 minutes ago, apandersP said:

Thanks a lot and thanks for the patience. I really try to find out my self before asking in here. I will check and double check everything. 

Asking is learning from other people's  experience.

A good technique to enhance learning , ha. 

Rgds

Edited October 5, 2024 by Nucejoe
Typo

[nevenbekriev]

OK, We see 277degr. amplitude, which may be not that real, but is not lo amplitude at all. There are some waves  that need investigation. Now we need  to see amplitudes in DU, DD and some vertical positions. If all with the balance/bearings/hairspring is OK or not, this will be clearly seen. It may appear that the movement doesn't lose time, but rather stops and starts again in some situations. Such behavior usually is due incorrect pallets adjustment, so escapement functions check is needed.

[Nucejoe]

3 hours ago, apandersP said:

I will check for end play. I just don’t know how much is allowed? 

Theoretically  end shake is .01mm on each side, that sums up to .02mm both sides combined , the problem you will have is, how can this end play be measured.

 We can do tests to make sure it neither too much ,nor too little. 

If the watch is running , slightly press on the cock, if that stops the balance , we can conclude end shake is about right.

The golden rule is;   if you gently  lift one side of the balance rim, balance pivot should not jump out of hole of the jewel. Needless to say , you wouldn't want to bend the pivots by exerting too much force.

Rgds

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, apandersP said:

will check for end play. I just don’t know how much is allowed? 
 

How i determine  correct endshake is not a matter of accurate measurement but of my perception of the minimum required up/down movement to allow complete free rotation of the train and escapement .

[apandersP]

I got some timegrapher photos now. It just looked like it got even worse now.. guess that’s normal due to the watch running a bit different after all the oil and stuff is out where it should, after running some days. 
 

Ofcause I broke the balance staff…. And I was really easy on it… it hard for me with this hobby… haven’t really got any nice experience yet.. but I will keep on, I don’t learn if anything is just going smooth and without issues. 
 

I’ve attached the photos of the timegrapher, of cause before I broke the staff… 

 

 

[nevenbekriev]

OK, I am waiting for You to replace again the staff. There are problems with the balance seen from TG pictures, so don't hurry to assemble the movement before rectifying all the balance issues. Take good pictures of the balance hole jewels and cap jewels in the plate and in the cock.  Do the free oscillations test to compare oscillations count DU - DD and verticals. All vertical positions must give equal result and no significant difference must be between DU-DD. Make sure the balance rim rotates true and doesn't touch anything (the 2nd wheel, the pallet fork cock)

[apandersP]

10 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

OK, I am waiting for You to replace again the staff. There are problems with the balance seen from TG pictures, so don't hurry to assemble the movement before rectifying all the balance issues. Take good pictures of the balance hole jewels and cap jewels in the plate and in the cock.  Do the free oscillations test to compare oscillations count DU - DD and verticals. All vertical positions must give equal result and no significant difference must be between DU-DD. Make sure the balance rim rotates true and doesn't touch anything (the 2nd wheel, the pallet fork cock)

I will get that checked, when the new balance staff arrives. I tried to look into the movement, to check if I could see if the pallet fork cock was rubbing. It’s really hard to see in that movement, due to the pallet fork bridge being different from what I have seen before. 
 

I tried to take some photos. 

[nevenbekriev]

OK, the hole stones look good. The cap stones need another view to be evaluated - You have to look if there is something like small pit on the place where the pivot head rests. Of course, presence of the pit is not wanted. The hairspring side cap stone picture is from the wrong side, the plate cap stone picture is OK but You need to look at it from an angle to see if there is pit or there is not. It is no problem to see if the balance rim touches the pallet cock. But it will be easier to do if only the balance with it's cock and the pallet cock are on the plate.

[apandersP]

I will take some more photos tomorrow. The setup with taking pictures with my microscope is a bit complicated

Just took one with my phone of the screen on the microscope. 
 

Doesn't looks like there’s any pit 

[Nucejoe]

3 hours ago, apandersP said:

 No trace of shellac left one pallets stones apandersP, make sure they aren't out of alignment. Are you going to re-shellac em?

 

 

 

[JohnR725]

On 10/5/2024 at 10:05 AM, apandersP said:

I did get the correct balance complete. It runs freely. I’ve got two photos of the timegrapher. 
 

It shows low on amplitude.  

one where is just placed the balance complete to the balance cock. And after some regulations. It doesn’t have the beat error regulation pin as some movement does. 

interpreting timing machine results does require that a photograph be taken in such a way that we can actually see the image without having to rotate it and do photo enhancement to see the details. does appear you later images that you grasp the concept as they are much easier to see than this one which is a rather interesting image once we can see it.

then from the quote above this would be the second image which you indicate doesn't have a beat error. We need to improve your timing machine interpretation skills which is why we always ask for pictures for this situation exactly.

first thing to remember is something that I believe  @Neverenoughwatches calls the snow globe effect. In other words some of your pictures appear to have random dots even though we see numbers on the screen. If the timing machine is having a hard time producing a proper graphical display then the numbers will not be right either timing machine needs to get a reasonably clear signal to give you an idea of what's going on. So basically snow globe effect is the timing machine telling you you have a serious problem you need to fix that with the numbers being wrong.

then this timing machine has a minor technical problem which is the graphical display is not big enough. I don't remember where the exact problem occurs but as the beat error increases somewhere past 4 ms the graphical display will roll over. This means that the topline will become the bottom line the bottom line will become the topline and as the beat error increases the lines will actually come together and conceivably will look quite nice. This is where the graphical display has to agree with the numeric display.

so in this particular example the number that really jumps out is 9.9 followed by the amplitude. Because 9.9 is the maximum number the timing machine can show. So basically you have an extremely bad number and a graphical display that does not look good at all either. So this is definitely not a watch in beat. Then I think others have hinted this I would be very suspicious if your amplitude was really 277° with a graphical display looking like this. So visually when you're looking at the watch how did the amplitude look? Yes I know you got a timing machine so you wouldn't have to look at the balance wheel but you ideally still have to look at the balance wheel and see the visually looks like it's running spectacular which it would be 277° versus probably not.

https://ranfft.org/caliber/2063-Cortebert-677

 

 

[apandersP]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

interpreting timing machine results does require that a photograph be taken in such a way that we can actually see the image without having to rotate it and do photo enhancement to see the details. does appear you later images that you grasp the concept as they are much easier to see than this one which is a rather interesting image once we can see it.

then from the quote above this would be the second image which you indicate doesn't have a beat error. We need to improve your timing machine interpretation skills which is why we always ask for pictures for this situation exactly.

first thing to remember is something that I believe  @Neverenoughwatches calls the snow globe effect. In other words some of your pictures appear to have random dots even though we see numbers on the screen. If the timing machine is having a hard time producing a proper graphical display then the numbers will not be right either timing machine needs to get a reasonably clear signal to give you an idea of what's going on. So basically snow globe effect is the timing machine telling you you have a serious problem you need to fix that with the numbers being wrong.

then this timing machine has a minor technical problem which is the graphical display is not big enough. I don't remember where the exact problem occurs but as the beat error increases somewhere past 4 ms the graphical display will roll over. This means that the topline will become the bottom line the bottom line will become the topline and as the beat error increases the lines will actually come together and conceivably will look quite nice. This is where the graphical display has to agree with the numeric display.

so in this particular example the number that really jumps out is 9.9 followed by the amplitude. Because 9.9 is the maximum number the timing machine can show. So basically you have an extremely bad number and a graphical display that does not look good at all either. So this is definitely not a watch in beat. Then I think others have hinted this I would be very suspicious if your amplitude was really 277° with a graphical display looking like this. So visually when you're looking at the watch how did the amplitude look? Yes I know you got a timing machine so you wouldn't have to look at the balance wheel but you ideally still have to look at the balance wheel and see the visually looks like it's running spectacular which it would be 277° versus probably not.

https://ranfft.org/caliber/2063-Cortebert-677

 

 

Thanks for the answer. Good information here!  

I’m pretty sure that the beat error just was way way off because that photo, was when I was trying to roughly adjust the beat error somewhere near. 
 

The other issue is, that I can’t find any information in the caliber lift angle.. all other movements I’ve worked on, I was able to look it up online. 

9 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 No trace of shellac left one pallets stones apandersP, make sure they aren't out of alignment. Are you going to re-shellac em?

 

 

 

That’s good eyes there! 
I don’t think I’m able to re shellac them. My skills aren’t there yet. I’ve got another pallet fork from a donor movement (the Incabloc version) might be the same. Gonna compare them later today. Don’t know if it’s any good or not, but I will look in the microscope. 

[Nucejoe]

15 minutes ago, apandersP said:

I can’t find any information in the caliber lift angle.. 

List of calibs lift angle, 

https://watchmakingtools.com/watchmaking-resources/watch-movement-lift-angles/

 

[AndyGSi]

1 hour ago, apandersP said:

I can’t find any information in the caliber lift angle.

I think in this instance you'll have to work it out.

[Neverenoughwatches]

17 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

List of calibs lift angle, 

https://watchmakingtools.com/watchmaking-resources/watch-movement-lift-angles/

 

@apandersP Working so much on pin pallet movements it's become almost routine for me to visually verify amplitude. My proceedure if I'm really wanting to know the lift angle - first make sure the pallet fork is centered ( midway) to the banking pins and the impulse pin is also positioned in the center of the fork ( not touching either horn ) the balance is now "on beat". Adjustment of the beat arm or collet adjustment may be needed to do this ( hopefully if you are new the balance cock has the facility to adjust the beat via a beat adjustment arm. Next grab yourself an ink pen refill ( grow in the dark ink is great for this ) clip the tube off close to the ink surface so you can dip a small oiler in to draw up some ink. In many cases the balance wheel will have two arms which makes the next step easy, now you have the balance  on beat...mark with your inked oiler.. the rim edge of the wheel directly below the center of one of the balance arms. We now need another ink dot placed at the opposite arm, not on the wheel rim but on the surface below it....be that the plate or a bridge. We now have our two ink references... so last up is to slowly wind up the watch until it starts to run and gradually increase the amplitude one click wind at a time...while keeping a close eye on the two ink dots. We are looking for them approaching each other until they reach side by side.....at this point stop adding power as the movement is now running at 180° amplitude. Place the movement on the timegrapher and adjust the lift angle until the amplitude matches our 180° visually verified amplitude.  Job done lift angle aquired. 

8 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

I think in this instance you'll have to work it out.

As above.......................

4 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

grow in the dark 

this was something i used to do in my teens with a fit filly .   Let me swap out grow for GLOW

[Knebo]

23 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

@apandersP Working so much on pin pallet movements it's become almost routine for me to visually verify amplitude. My proceedure if I'm really wanting to know the lift angle - first make sure the pallet fork is centered ( midway) to the banking pins and the impulse pin is also positioned in the center of the fork ( not touching either horn ) the balance is now "on beat". Adjustment of the beat arm or collet adjustment may be needed to do this ( hopefully if you are new the balance cock has the facility to adjust the beat via a beat adjustment arm. Next grab yourself an ink pen refill ( grow in the dark ink is great for this ) clip the tube off close to the ink surface so you can dip a small oiler in to draw up some ink. In many cases the balance wheel will have two arms which makes the next step easy, now you have the balance  on beat...mark with your inked oiler.. the rim edge of the wheel directly below the center of one of the balance arms. We now need another ink dot placed at the opposite arm, not on the wheel rim but on the surface below it....be that the plate or a bridge. We now have our two ink references... so last up is to slowly wind up the watch until it starts to run and gradually increase the amplitude one click wind at a time...while keeping a close eye on the two ink dots. We are looking for them approaching each other until they reach side by side.....at this point stop adding power as the movement is now running at 180° amplitude. Place the movement on the timegrapher and adjust the lift angle until the amplitude matches our 180° visually verified amplitude.  Job done lift angle aquired. 

As above.......................

this was something i used to do in my teens with a fit filly .   Let me swap out grow for GLOW

IF you have a good smartphone camera, there's a faster and easier alternative to this approach: take a (super) slow-motion video of the balance (at any amplitude/wind) with your phone. If needed, you can use a 5x loupe and hold it in front of the camera lens to magnify. Now watch the video and assess the degrees of the swing. Focus on one of the spokes and wait until it stops to swing the other direction -- follow the spoke until it stops again (to change direction again). For example, if the spoke makes 1.5 full turns, that's 360° x 1.5 = 540°. Now you divide by two, so 540° / 2 = 270° amplitude. Once you've determined the correct amplitude, you adjust the lift angle on your timegrapher until it  shows the correct amplitude.

[apandersP]

I will check into calculating the lift angle, when I get the new balance.

The beat error adjustment, is done by turning the collet, unfortunately it doesn’t have the other type. 
 

I checked and compared the original and the new balance staff to each other, and the visual looks the same. 
 

But to be sure, before I order a new one. I found it this way. 
 

Cousin didn’t have one in stock, so I found one on eBay. But the cousin number doesn’t match up with the one from eBay (the one I’ve got) but the seller shows me this, therefore I bought it. And they looks to be the same. 
 

I’m pretty confident that it’s the right one I’ve got, but just wanna be sure, so I maybe/maybe not order another wrong part.