How to raise the hairspring at the stud?

[Khan]

Hi

When balance running, the spring touches the last outer spring and make the watch running fast. Or is it touching because the spring is not lowered/pushed enough down on the balance? the I have seen the last few percent of the spring to be raised, if thats the solution, how can I manipulate it with tweezers? 

Edited August 16, 2024 by Khan

[mikepilk]

It looks like the collet is not pushed fully down.

Also, it looks like the top pivot bent ?

You need to bend the terminal curve so that it is flat. 

 

 

[praezis]

The last 90 to 180 deg to the stud is rising, it should be the same level as the rest.

If you can see where rising starts, twist there with 2 tweezers. Else go back from stud max. 180 deg and twist. Not recommended for beginners.

Frank

[Neverenoughwatches]

46 minutes ago, Khan said:

Hi

When balance running, the spring touches the last outer spring and make the watch running fast. Or is it touching because the spring is not lowered/pushed enough down on the balance? the I have seen the last few percent of the spring to be raised, if thats the solution, how can I manipulate it with tweezers? 

There's more that just a bit of spare poking through the stud as well, is that doing anything it shouldn't be. And no don't cut it back , you may need it yet. The non flat is likely caused by a twist but it could also be a vertical bend near the end raising the last coil up. Hopefully its a twist easier to deal with, as frank says back 180° from high point but you should be able to see where the twist begins. Anchor with one tweezer just before the twist , other tweezer leave open just after twist, angle tweezer in direction required and then nip together gently but with purpose, then examine and repeat as necessary. No its not beginner's stuff, practice on scrap springs, the vertical bend correction is more challenging  and easier to overdo, lots and lots of practice.  I finally , a year ago found a couple of mediums that i like to press the spring into, thick dense cardboard or hard pink dehydrated sponge, the sponge is good/gentle as it allows the spring to sink in as well.

A uniform medium is easier to work with, i went off using timber there was too much variation in it to safely bend a spring's height profile. 

[Khan]

2 hours ago, mikepilk said:

It looks like the collet is not pushed fully down.

Also, it looks like the top pivot bent ?

You need to bend the terminal curve so that it is flat. 

 

 

Yes, there top pivot is a little bent, can it be corrected?

[mikepilk]

1 minute ago, Khan said:

Yes, there top pivot is a little bent, can it be corrected?

Theoretically yes. Practically, very difficult/near impossible. I have never managed without breaking it.

Do you have a staking set?

[Khan]

Agree - Yes I have a staking set. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

Theoretically yes. Practically, very difficult/near impossible. I have never managed without breaking it.

Do you have a staking set?

Just need the right tool Mike as with watchmaking tools. 

[mikepilk]

41 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Just need the right tool Mike as with watchmaking tools. 

 

Trust you to have the right tool .  Next time I need a pivot straightening, I'll send it over. You must have straightened hundreds without a single failure?

Those tools are as rare on ebay as rocking horse poo, and as new ones cost £642 and balance staffs are about £10, I'll stick with changing the staffs.

Edited August 16, 2024 by mikepilk

[Neverenoughwatches]

29 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Trust you to have the right tool .  Next time I need a pivot straightening, I'll send it over. You must have straightened hundreds without a single failure?

Those tools are as rare on ebay as rocking horse poo, and as new ones cost £642 and balance staffs are about £10, I'll stick with changing the staffs.

Attempted 3 success rate 2 ,  another 30 or so saved and its paid for , 20 years maybe . 

[JohnR725]

15 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Just need the right tool Mike as with watchmaking tools. 

 

15 hours ago, mikepilk said:

and as new ones cost £642

Now I know what I should've invested in for retirement plan as I'm sure they didn't cost that at one time. Then if you had one of these rare tools yes it can work this have to be careful.

15 hours ago, mikepilk said:

balance staffs are about £10,

Ideally replacing the balance staff would be best but do we know which balance staff this is?

[caseback]

15 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Those tools are as rare on ebay as rocking horse poo, and as new ones cost £642 and balance staffs are about £10, I'll stick with changing the staffs.

Usually there are 1 or 2 available on ebay at any given time for something like $250. Still a lot of money for a dedicated pivot-breaking device. A $5 tweezer works just as well..

[mikepilk]

4 minutes ago, caseback said:

Usually there are 1 or 2 available on ebay at any given time for something like $250. Still a lot of money for a dedicated pivot-breaking device. A $5 tweezer works just as well..

Yep, just as easy to break with tweezers 

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

 

Now I know what I should've invested in for retirement plan as I'm sure they didn't cost that at one time. Then if you had one of these rare tools yes it can work this have to be careful.

Ideally replacing the balance staff would be best but do we know which balance staff this is?

Not too rare though and not too expensive for an old one tbh, i found two on ebay just now. You take your chances on if a jewel or two might be broken . I was very lucky at £120 in perfect condition,  i wouldn't have paid much more and the seller was kind enough to drop it from 150 to 120 my cheeky offer, so i figured it was a bargain. I see an attempt at straightening a pivot as nothing to lose and everything to gain. Out of 3 i broke 1 and that was complacency, too confident that i had success with 2, i didn't give the 3rd enough time in each jewel, i wasn't progressive enough so my bad. The upside is a potentially if not a high probability of a straight pivot. No risk of clumsy staff removal / rivetting up, potential damage etc. The straightening up i would say is faster and damage limiting for me anyway as staff replacement for me isn't my fortè, I'm ok but haven't done enough to be super confident and i haven't managed to cut a staff out cleanly yet. So in my experience the pivot straightener gets a if you can aquire one cheap enough.

[JohnR725]

4 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

just as easy to break with tweezers

It helps to have the right tweezers and the right procedure with tweezers. Yes like everything in the world there's procedures like if the tweezers a heated up not red hot but they have to be hot hot enough you can't actually hold the tweezers. When I was in school the instructor had the tweezers with strips of wood to keep you from burning your fingers. Then it hit it with an alcohol lamp and that's how he would do that. Plus of course the right shape of the tweezers conveniently I don't remember what they're called I'd have to get a picture.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 minutes ago, caseback said:

Usually there are 1 or 2 available on ebay at any given time for something like $250. Still a lot of money for a dedicated pivot-breaking device. A $5 tweezer works just as well..

Lol i wouldn't call it dedicated, if it's bent then it may as well be broken But i see your point if it breaks a pivot at every attempt then you've bought something that does nothing. I figure Bergeon would be having plenty returned if at nearly £700 they didn't work at all.

 

[mikepilk]

5 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 No risk of clumsy staff removal / rivetting up, potential damage etc. The straightening up i would say is faster and damage limiting for me anyway as staff replacement for me isn't my fortè, I'm ok but haven't done enough to be super confident and i haven't managed to cut a staff out cleanly yet. So in my experience the pivot straightener gets a if you can aquire one cheap enough.

I haven't done lots, but I have no trouble changing staffs. I punch them out with a Kendrick and Davis tool. Once you have selected the correct punches, it only takes a minute or two to rivet the new staff in. You do avoid some rebalancing if you straighten the pivot. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

21 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I haven't done lots, but I have no trouble changing staffs. I punch them out with a Kendrick and Davis tool. Once you have selected the correct punches, it only takes a minute or two to rivet the new staff in. You do avoid some rebalancing if you straighten the pivot. 

Probably more than me Mike , i rough guess maybe 15 or so. Doesn’t worry me but i always have that nagging feeling in my head that i should be cutting the staff out, if i can avoid that nagging i will. Maybe i can apply that theory to the missus . Parts do need to be removed and accurately replaced to restaff, hairspring risk comes to mind, the whole proceedure is certainly longer, probably why the pivot tool is so expensive new.

26 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

It helps to have the right tweezers and the right procedure with tweezers. Yes like everything in the world there's procedures like if the tweezers a heated up not red hot but they have to be hot hot enough you can't actually hold the tweezers. When I was in school the instructor had the tweezers with strips of wood to keep you from burning your fingers. Then it hit it with an alcohol lamp and that's how he would do that. Plus of course the right shape of the tweezers conveniently I don't remember what they're called I'd have to get a picture.

 

Watchmaker and kindred trade tool catalogue,  one of the best links you've posted John

Edited August 17, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[rehajm]

18 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I haven't done lots, but I have no trouble changing staffs. I punch them out with a Kendrick and Davis tool. Once you have selected the correct punches, it only takes a minute or two to rivet the new staff in. You do avoid some rebalancing if you straighten the pivot. 

Yah that’s a good way to think about it.  Since I have the pivot tool from my Seitz set I give it a go with the expectation I may be replacing the staff. I’ve had great success with the tool though, a great time and hassle saver when it works. I’ve only had couple two or three snaps out of six or seven, one while learning how to do it and one where I miscalculated the pivot width and went too small in the jewel hole…

…I don’t understand the heat/cool idea- ‘twas bent at room temperature and it didn’t snap so just bend it back. I’ve done the following for wheel pivots, too…

 

[tomh207]

42 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

It helps to have the right tweezers and the right procedure with tweezers. Yes like everything in the world there's procedures like if the tweezers a heated up not red hot but they have to be hot hot enough you can't actually hold the tweezers. When I was in school the instructor had the tweezers with strips of wood to keep you from burning your fingers. Then it hit it with an alcohol lamp and that's how he would do that. Plus of course the right shape of the tweezers conveniently I don't remember what they're called I'd have to get a picture.

 

These ones I think John, the small set is Favorite and the large Dumont

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

24 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

These ones I think John, the small set is Favorite and the large Dumont

Tom

Oooooh Tom , now I've got some tweezers this thick and i wasn't sure what they were for, still dont , but it could be adapted,  now i can sell my bergeon straightener lol. 

[caseback]

3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Yep, just as easy to break with tweezers 

Yes, that's what I meant. 

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

But i see your point if it breaks a pivot at every attempt then you've bought something that does nothing. I figure Bergeon would be having plenty returned if at nearly £700 they didn't work at all.

Interesting theory that the tool doesn't work at all except it does work and it seems to work fine at least on the couple of times I've used it.

6 hours ago, tomh207 said:

These ones I think John, the small set is Favorite and the large Dumont

Yes it's the large one that works fine for straightening pivots at least if it's warmed up.

 

6 hours ago, rehajm said:

I don’t understand the heat/cool idea- ‘twas bent at room temperature and it didn’t snap so just bend it back. I’ve done the following for wheel pivots, too…

We need the help of somebody else who's done this before which would be @nickelsilver

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

23 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Interesting theory that the tool doesn't work at all except it does work and it seems to work fine at least on the couple of times I've used it.

It certainly does work John. I'm happy with my 2 out of 3 and one of those was on an escape wheel.

[mikepilk]

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It certainly does work John. I'm happy with my 2 out of 3 and one of those was on an escape wheel.

Are the pivots on different wheels (escapement, gear train, balance) hardened to the same degree?

I wondered if balance pivots were less tempered and so more likely to break.