Going out of mind here with low amplitude on a 7s26 and can't fathom why. ANY suggestions for fault finding would be great. I'm ready to throw in the towel.

[Neverenoughwatches]

13 minutes ago, rjenkinsgb said:

Are you lubricating the pallet fork pivots as part of your rebuild? That may reduce amplitude?

you're not supposed to ??? . Theres a storm coming Rob and its nothing to do with the weather

[HectorLooi]

Watch this video to squeeze every last bit of amplitude out of your watch.

[rjenkinsgb]

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

you're not supposed to ??? . Theres a storm coming Rob and its nothing to do with the weather

On most movement, they should not be lubricated and the amplitude may reduce if you do lubricate them.

(However the lube sheet for the Seiko Lord Matic 5606A I am working on at the moment specifies they must be lubricated with a small amount of 9010!)

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

13 minutes ago, rjenkinsgb said:

On most movement, they should not be lubricated and the amplitude may reduce if you do lubricate them.

(However the lube sheet for the Seiko Lord Matic 5606A I am working on at the moment specifies they must be lubricated with a small amount of 9010!)

 

Had the Lord Matic saved as an ebay search for ages waiting for a nice square cased one to come up, sooo 70's they are. 

49 minutes ago, rjenkinsgb said:

On most movement, they should not be lubricated and the amplitude may reduce if you do lubricate them.

(However the lube sheet for the Seiko Lord Matic 5606A I am working on at the moment specifies they must be lubricated with a small amount of 9010!)

 

I'm gussing it might have something to do with it being a high beat for its time. John often quotes that tech sheets change over time due to new ideas, findings and oil upgrades. 

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

Watch this video to squeeze every last bit of amplitude out of your watch.

Chuck the thickest mainspring you can find inside the barrel

To my mind the big point made by Alex in this video and something that might be overlooked, is the insertion into the barrel of the mainspring winder and making absolutely sure it doesnt contact the barrel wall lubrication . The application of dotted lubrication may make this more susceptible to happening, so getting the winder barrel diameter size just right is imperative to not disturbing the lube.

This seems to be an area of inspection for good functioning that is difficult to determine. To know if the energy storage and initial delivery system is functioning adequately we rely on the train function group to indicate.  This is carried out normally by looking for some spin back of the escape wheel during adding power to the barrel, but friction in both the barrel system and the train can prevent this indicator from working plus its not that reliable and does not always indicate an issue if the escape wheel does not reverse, only to know that if we see some spinback it should all be relatively free running, so should we always aim to get that ? There seems to be no isolated running test for the barrel as a complete unit so do we know to any accurate degree how much power its producing or initially delivering to the train ?

[rjenkinsgb]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Had the Lord Matic saved as an ebay search for ages waiting for a nice square cased one to come up, sooo 70's they are.

Yes, they are very nice. I've added photos in "Current projects" rather than go too off-topic here.

[Birbdad]

4 hours ago, rjenkinsgb said:

Are you lubricating the pallet fork pivots as part of your rebuild? That may reduce amplitude?

And the impulse jewel faces? That may also affect it, but better if done.

Nope, i basically do sorta standard modern lubrication. 
So no lubrication on pallet fork pivots and i lubricate the pallet stone faces with 9415 really carefully till there's that nice little fluid bridge on the exit stone when it's contacting the escape wheel.

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

To my untrained eye ,especially on Seiko would say it looks too deep, a good third. I couldn’t say how much amplitude this would rob or if its enough to stop a watch before the power reserve ran out . A comparison with a known good amplitude watch might indicate.  Still think function group testing will zero you in on the fault.

Could be. I just scavenged four immaculate looking pallet forks from junk movements and i have three spare escape wheels. I"m going to just start back from the barrel and start swapping parts and see if anything changes.

4 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Watch this video to squeeze every last bit of amplitude out of your watch.

Yeah i've seen all his vids and a lot of what i do is from  his advice. I actually post in a discord he created for the watchmaking subreddit which iirc he basically runs now. 

Right now i'm not concerned with squeezing a bit of extra amplitude out. Something major is wrong and I Just suck so bad at fault finding. 

Just a reminder i've serviced a ton of these 7s26's. They're generally uneventful affairs taking about three hours and i end up with a great amplitude and a low delta. Hence why i'm so baffled as to how i can't get this thing to run. it was a perfectly working watch when i took it apart, just about 7 years past it's service interval.

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

if we see some spinback it should all be relatively free running, so should we always aim to get that ? There seems to be no isolated running test for the barrel as a complete unit so do we know to any accurate degree how much power its producing or initially delivering to the train ?

So here's the weird thing abou tthat. I've done a bunch of these, the amp is spot on at 265 to 280. I've actually NEVER seen any of that backlash in a 7s26 no matter how good it functions. Why? Hell if i know but i've never actually seen it. I"m definitely not seeing it with this one either.

4 hours ago, rjenkinsgb said:

On most movement, they should not be lubricated and the amplitude may reduce if you do lubricate them.

(However the lube sheet for the Seiko Lord Matic 5606A I am working on at the moment specifies they must be lubricated with a small amount of 9010!)

 

The spec sheet does call for it on these too. I don't do it. There's a lot of weird stuff in seiko spec sheets. 
For starters they recommend your 3rd wheel be lubricated with 9010 on one side and and hp1300 on the other. 
In one of the 7s26 spec sheets they actually mislabel one of the wheels, i forget which one. I think they call the center and the third wheel the second wheel. 

[HectorLooi]

There was once I visited my mentor while he was working on a Seiko. He told me that there are some Seikos that, regardless of what you do, you just can't get the amplitude to go above 200.

If you have donor movements, just swap out the whole movement and move on.

Life is short. 

[JohnR725]

22 hours ago, Birbdad said:

Can't break 200 amp in dial positions.

What's interesting for Seiko is they don't publish amplitude specifications at all. In the very newest documents though the give you lift angle but they won't tell you what you're supposed to use it for. I would be curious if you could do an experiment? The wind the watch all the way up wait 15 minutes and look at it dial pick a dial position and then crown down what is a look-alike of the timing machine give us pictures that's always nice. Leave it on the bench or even better yet even on the timing machine and come back 24 hours and give us the numbers there and a picture. The watch companies could care less about how much amplitude you get except at 24 hours.

5 hours ago, rjenkinsgb said:

Are you lubricating the pallet fork pivots as part of your rebuild? That may reduce amplitude?

Amusingly Seiko usually recommends oiling the pallet fork pivots.

10 hours ago, Birbdad said:

I can do that. Also had a weird development that hasn't happened yet. Woke up and the thing was stopped after running for only 10 hours.

Then this is troubling has its indicating something that's possibly robbing you of amplitude of the watches stopping. Which comes back to I wonder what the amplitude is at 24 hours

6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

To my untrained eye ,especially on Seiko would say it looks too deep, a good third. I couldn’t say how much amplitude this would rob or if its enough to stop a watch before the power reserve ran out . A comparison with a known good amplitude watch might indicate.  Still think function group testing will zero you in on the fault.

Once everything else is ruled out as to why the watches doing what it's doing etc. if you want to go for last bit of performance then yes move the pallet stones. Ideally you would check the safety features to make sure of how much you can push the stones. It depends upon the play between the fork and whatever is the banking pins probably milled into the plate. So once you verify how much is the minimum you can reduce the depth and yes you would take up a lot of amplitude. But a watch randomly stopping probably has other issues.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Birbdad said:

So here's the weird thing abou tthat. I've done a bunch of these, the amp is spot on at 265 to 280. I've actually NEVER seen any of that backlash in a 7s26 no matter how good it functions. Why? Hell if i know but i've never actually seen it. I"m definitely not seeing it with this one either.

As far as i know Col it isn't conditional, only that when you DO see it , it becomes a reasonable assumption that the barrel system is functioning well and the train is running quite freely. 

[rjenkinsgb]

2 hours ago, Birbdad said:

The spec sheet does call for it on these too. I don't do it. There's a lot of weird stuff in seiko spec sheets. 

On the 5606, I tried to get the "small" amount recommended. As I was doing the other small jewels, I touched the already-drained oiler to the pallet fork pivot after doing another jewel, so not totally dry but a fraction of the quantity a normal jewel pivot has.

I've not finished it off to do any testing yet, so I have yet to see the results!

Edited August 13, 2024 by rjenkinsgb

[Birbdad]

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

There was once I visited my mentor while he was working on a Seiko. He told me that there are some Seikos that, regardless of what you do, you just can't get the amplitude to go above 200.

If you have donor movements, just swap out the whole movement and move on.

Life is short. 

Well this was a perfectly working movement when i took it apart with 270 amplitude. Life's short but I'm here to learn. 
Once i solve this i'll have learned something!

1 minute ago, rjenkinsgb said:

On the 5606, I tried to get the "small" amount recommended. As I was doing the other small jewels, I touched the already-drained oiler to the pallet fork pivot after doing another jewel, so not totally dry but a fraction of the quantity a normal jewel pivot has.

I've not finished it off to do any testing yet, so I have yet to see the results!

Keep us informed!
Intuitively, it seems like that SHOULD get oil. But the collective watchmaking world has told me not to, so i don't.

[rjenkinsgb]

I think it's the benefit of reducing friction or wear, vs. the harmful damping effect of oil on that pivot, that has to move extremely fast to transfer energy to the balance.

[Birbdad]

So, got some time to spend with it. Swapped out the pallet fork and escape wheel to the originals that came with the movement and there is zero change in amplitude. So i guess i can eliminate that.

[Birbdad]

Okay, banged my head against it for a few more hours. Got utterly nowhere. 
I have now swapped out:
1. The arbor.
2. The 3rd wheel.
3. The fourth wheel.
4. The escape wheel.
5. The pallet fork.
6. The balance. 

No change in amp. 

I'm fairly sure it's not the center wheel as what on earth could harm that. It's a chunky wheel. 

IN the back of my mind i can't stop the buzzing telling me this mainspring just isn't cut out for this...but it was giving me 250 amp with a completely rusted pallet fork and balance just two damn weeks ago. 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/oYFeTAvHtFA5ayzq5 Here's me hitting the balance with a puffer. Seems to move as freely as any balance i've ever worked on.

Edited August 14, 2024 by Birbdad

[rehajm]

Sorry, mate. These ‘worse than before’ movements are maddening. I’ve had one or two. Let it run a week maybe?

[Birbdad]

1 minute ago, rehajm said:

Sorry, mate. These ‘worse than before’ movements are maddening. I’ve had one or two. Let it run a week maybe?

IT's not uncommon for me to get as much as 30 extra amp letting them run overnight after a service. I've had no such luck with this one -_-

LIke how tf do i get 260 amp with a rusted and i mean RUSTED, caked with rust pallet fork and balance, replace both of them and lose 70 degrees of amplitude?!

Really killing the confidence i'd built up here. I should be able to solve this...

[SwissSeiko]

52 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

IT's not uncommon for me to get as much as 30 extra amp letting them run overnight after a service. I've had no such luck with this one -_-

LIke how tf do i get 260 amp with a rusted and i mean RUSTED, caked with rust pallet fork and balance, replace both of them and lose 70 degrees of amplitude?!

Really killing the confidence i'd built up here. I should be able to solve this...

this may be a dumb question, but are all the jewel holes clean? you mention the pallet and balance were rusty, they could have gotten a bit of debris in them. otherwise, id get a new barrel complete as is recommended by seiko and try that.

[mikepilk]

3 hours ago, Birbdad said:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/oYFeTAvHtFA5ayzq5 Here's me hitting the balance with a puffer. Seems to move as freely as any balance i've ever worked on.

What does it look like when you give it a really strong blow?

I was going to suggest checking that the fourth wheel pinion isn't binding in the centre wheel - but I see you have changed both. 

[JohnR725]

On 8/6/2024 at 4:08 AM, Birbdad said:

My favorite dive watch was long overdue for a service.

I decided to go back and reread the entire discussion. This avoids me the quote above asking the history of the watch so what is the definition of long overdue for service? Then who service the watch or has it ever been serviced?

On 8/6/2024 at 4:08 AM, Birbdad said:

4. Took apart, noticed my balance and pallet fork rusted to crap due to likely moisture ingress into my bench solvent. Sucks, but i got spares and hey now it should all be working right? Surely a rusty pallet fork/balance staff (REAL RUSTY) is gonna drag my amp down.

5. Today, took apart, cleaned put in new pallet fork and balance and swapped the escape wheel for a brand new one, METICULOUSLY lubricated under the scope so i could be sure it was perfect so i wouldn't have to do it again. I just finished and put it on the grapher....somehow replacing a rusty pallet fork and balance LOST me 70 degrees of amplitude and i'm barely hitting 170. 

The other problem I'm trying to figure out if your problem was before in other words you decided the service the watch because it was giving issues or the issues started after the servicing.

Then rust is usually not confined to just steel components. For instance for the little the oil it makes a great grinding compound like even on jewels so conceivably your jewels of all been damaged that they are no longer shiny and smooth you're going to lose some amplitude there.

On 8/6/2024 at 4:08 AM, Birbdad said:

This is a borderline brand new looking movement. It worked GREAT when i took it apart. I had no mishaps, everything seems perfect under inspection.

Okay I have a confusion the first quote indicates long-overdue For a service and this indicates everything was perfect and looks brand-new? It would've been so nice if you could have done a pre-timing procedure so we would've known is exact condition like amplitude before servicing. Would have helped to nail down the weather was a before problem or an after problem

On 8/6/2024 at 5:01 AM, Birbdad said:

waxy film

I'm not reading the second page of this discussion I assume you fix that problem? In other words all the solvents all the cleaning products all have to be thrown out everything asked her properly washed off possibly with some other solvents as we have no idea what this is and then everything started off clean and fresh again and extra work is considerably required to clean off whatever is on everything

On 8/6/2024 at 5:01 AM, Birbdad said:

For starters my rate with a brand new balance spring

Brand-new balance spring or balance complete?

 

[Birbdad]

On 8/14/2024 at 10:09 AM, SwissSeiko said:

this may be a dumb question, but are all the jewel holes clean? you mention the pallet and balance were rusty, they could have gotten a bit of debris in them. otherwise, id get a new barrel complete as is recommended by seiko and try that.

I peg out my jewel holes before and after cleaning. 

On 8/14/2024 at 2:27 PM, JohnR725 said:

I decided to go back and reread the entire discussion. This avoids me the quote above asking the history of the watch so what is the definition of long overdue for service? Then who service the watch or has it ever been serviced?

 

The other problem I'm trying to figure out if your problem was before in other words you decided the service the watch because it was giving issues or the issues started after the servicing.

 

I bought the watch new about 12 years ago. It ran perfect when i took it apart so it had never been serviced but yeah, was long overdue.

On 8/14/2024 at 2:27 PM, JohnR725 said:

Then rust is usually not confined to just steel components. For instance for the little the oil it makes a great grinding compound like even on jewels so conceivably your jewels of all been damaged that they are no longer shiny and smooth you're going to lose some amplitude there.

Highly unlikely I only noticed the rust piled up by the pallet fork jewel as a fluke but it only ran for a little bit like that, maybe a few hours but I had 260 amplitude with this mainspring WITH the rusted parts. Thought i was done, cleaned it, relubricated it swapped out the parts and my amp cratered by 80 degrees. 

On 8/14/2024 at 2:27 PM, JohnR725 said:

Okay I have a confusion the first quote indicates long-overdue For a service and this indicates everything was perfect and looks brand-new? It would've been so nice if you could have done a pre-timing procedure so we would've known is exact condition like amplitude before servicing. Would have helped to nail down the weather was a before problem or an after problem

I forget the exact stats but it was running great. About 270 amplitude and a bit of a high delta but not out of spec for this movement. About what I expect from a factory 7s26

On 8/14/2024 at 2:27 PM, JohnR725 said:

I'm not reading the second page of this discussion I assume you fix that problem? In other words all the solvents all the cleaning products all have to be thrown out everything asked her properly washed off possibly with some other solvents as we have no idea what this is and then everything started off clean and fresh again and extra work is considerably required to clean off whatever is on everything

All the solvents have been replaced and i'm fairly certain that part is solved. 

On 8/14/2024 at 2:27 PM, JohnR725 said:

Brand-new balance spring or balance complete?

 

New balance complete.

UPDATE: I have some answers but those answers just create weird questions. I found an old very tired seiko mainspring, probably 20 years old that i just used to practice my mainspring winder and decided to prepare a barrel and throw it in. My amp jumped to 250 then quickly dropped down to 220 within an hour or two. 

What i don't get is why i was able to get 260 with these generic mainsprings but then they couldn't crank out more than 180 afterwards. I've always felt this issue was with the barrel, either the mainspring not putting out enough power or something but this seems to confirm that. 

I tried TWO of these 2377x mainsprings, i forget why i even switched over to another one but with one of them, at one point my amplitude was good. I'm so tired of dealing with this I'm going to just take a nearly new mainspring out of a 7s26c watch cuz you can still get barrel completes for them for fairly cheap and just transfer it into a barrel for this watch. 

I know @mikepilk Got up to 250 with one of these springs but I"m thinking for whatever reason they just aren't up to the task for this movement in my hands and i have no idea why. I'll report back.

Edited August 16, 2024 by Birbdad

[Birbdad]

Scavenged a nearly brand new stock mainspring. the wind tension on it is strong, way stronger then the generics. 

Put it in and my amplitude DROPPED by 20 degrees to a total of 220

What the hell is going on. 
It's not the barrel, it's not the arbor, it's not the 3rd wheel it's not the fourth wheel it's not the escape wheel it's not the pallet fork it's not the balance.

The only thing left is the center wheel and i know it's fine....This is maddening -_-

[Neverenoughwatches]

You're having a tough time with this one Col, maybe take a break from it for a while. It ain't going anywhere its problems will still be there for you to solve another day. I find the harder i try the worse things become, i take a break come back and start from scratch sometimes months later, that isn't giving up , its coming back with a fresh head to a fresh problem with a different mindset,  and hopefully a little bit wiser.

[JohnR725]

10 hours ago, Birbdad said:

these springs

What will be nice to see with all your springs would be out of the barrel laying on the table. In other words visually how do they look? We don't get specifications for the curvature the spring and a very interesting back curves and some of the Springs have can produce some really interesting power curves. Plus if any of the Springs were set and yes modern white Springs can be set that's going to produce a bad power curve

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

maybe take a break from it for a while.

One of the problems and watch repair is seeing things. In other words taking a break would be a good idea approach it a week or so later. Then with a fresh look maybe you'll see something You currently don't see because your brain isn't going to let you see it at all.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 minute ago, JohnR725 said:

Then with a fresh look maybe you'll see something You currently don't see because your brain isn't going to let you see it at all.

My brain doesn't let me see bad things that bad people try to do to nice watches on YouTube.  

[SwissSeiko]

Some watches are just problem makers. I wouldn't get too hung up on amplitude. I know its an important number, but focusing solely on it and trying to crank out every bit of it will drive you mad, as you're experiencing. I will say, the 7S26 movement is a bit of a strange one compared to swiss movements that have the standard train of wheels, so its a bit more difficult to diagnose. But I have a few tricks.

 

Is this part of the center wheel ok? try running the movement without the center wheel and see what your amplitude is.

 

And also, this one is a bit strange, but its tripped me up on seikos before. Can you remove the magic lever and wheel and see if that improves amplitude? These have gotten out of mesh for me before and have caused me problems. I don't know if it will help, but worth a try!