Positional error?

[Melissalea]

I have a Hamilton 980. I stripped it, cleaned it, and lubricated it. I runs great until I pick it up or try to set the hands. I am wondering if it needs a new pallet fork. This one seems to have one stone longer than the other. Is that normal on some movements or should they all be the same size on both sides. Other than that, I am at a loss. I have tried taking the pallet and balance out and back in a few times to see if there was an issue there. Looks good to me anyway. 

Thank you so much

[JohnR725]

11 hours ago, Melissalea said:

runs great

I don't suppose you have a timing machine to verify how well it is really running or not?

11 hours ago, Melissalea said:

until I pick it up or try to set the hands

what happens when you pick up the watch and try to set the hands? or what happens if  you just pick up the watch?

then what was the condition of the watch before you service did in other words was a running watch the just needed  cleaning or was it a watch that had a problem and wasn't running?

 

[nickelsilver]

The pallet stones look different, they have different angles on their faces. The pallet fork could be faulty, but there's no more (really less) reason to suspect it over a dozen other things.

 

• With the balance out, fork out, wind just a couple of clicks of wind on the barrel; the train should spin freely, and ideally the escape wheel will turn backwards a bit when it comes to a stop

 

• Balance back in, if you give it a light puff of air it should oscillate freely, and for a good 15-20 seconds (or more), and do so in both horizontal positions and several vertical positions.

 

• Balance out, fork back in. With a little power on the mainspring, the fork should snap cleanly from one banking to the other with a slight nudge.

 

If any of these checks don't pass, figure out why and fix it before proceeding to the next check.

 

• Balance back in, wind it up, and observe that it has sufficient amplitude, and runs well in both horizontal positions and 4 vertical positions.

 

If you see that the watch runs well in all but certain positions, that gives you clues as to where to dig further.

Edited June 21, 2024 by nickelsilver

[VWatchie]

@nickelsilver : Include those steps in your coming book about servicing and repairing! 

[Melissalea]

John, 

• I unfortunately do not have a timing machine. I am still pretty new to this and tools for this trade are costly, as you know. If I wind it up, it'll run great. Sometimes I can pick it up and it continues to run and other times it'll stop so I haven't quite figured out a pattern yet. 
• When I took the balance out and wound it a bit, the pallet fork doesn't snap to each bank. It does to the left bank, but not to the right bank, which is why I thought maybe the pallet stone on that side was worn down and needed to be replaced. 
• Thank you everyone who commented. You guys are all life savers.

[nevenbekriev]

1 hour ago, Melissalea said:

• When I took the balance out and wound it a bit, the pallet fork doesn't snap to each bank. It does to the left bank, but not to the right bank, which is why I thought maybe the pallet stone on that side was worn down and needed to be replaced.

So You have a problem with the pallet fork. It just may need to be adjusted. Look at the stone "on that side" under magnification and if it is not chipped, everything is OK. The stone is not worn, it can be moved out (to the wheel) to the correct position where it will work as it should. One possible reason for what happens is the pallet fork is from another (donor) movement where it has worked fine, but it was adjusted for that movement and not for the one it is in now.

Edited June 21, 2024 by nevenbekriev

[Melissalea]

Ok so I did as NickelSilver suggested. I took out the balance and the pallet fork seems to snap to either side most of the time. sometimes it would need a little more of a nudge and then it would snap. With the balance and pallet out, I wound it again and all the wheels seemed to spin freely just fine. After a bit, it stopped. Then it would move more and stop again. I took off the bridge for the escape wheel and third wheel, checked everything and replaced the bridge. It still seems to get hung up somewhere. Mind you, this movement does not have any jewels. The pivot holes are just metal holes so I added a little more lubrication, but that did not seem to help. 

[VWatchie]

50 minutes ago, Melissalea said:

With the balance and pallet out, I wound it again and all the wheels seemed to spin freely just fine. After a bit, it stopped. Then it would move more and stop again.

That's a clear indication there's too much friction in the wheel train. Ideally, when the train stops you should be able to see the escape wheel spin a tiny bit backwards (counterclockwise as seen from the side opposite the dial) as already mentioned by @nickelsilver. The cause may be something specific or the cumulative effect of several errors.

When I get this kind of problem, I test by adding one wheel at a time. Start by checking that the arbor in the barrel spins completely freely. To test, you first need to remove the mainspring.

A few years ago I started a thread that became very instructive for me. Maybe you can benefit from it too.

 

[JohnR725]

23 hours ago, Melissalea said:

Hamilton 980

1 hour ago, Melissalea said:

Mind you, this movement does not have any jewels

Always nice if you give us a picture of the watch in the discussion to avoid confusions? My confusion is I'm reasonably sure that the Hamilton 980 is supposed to have 17 jewels?

6 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

That's a clear indication there's too much friction in the wheel train.

Yes that's not a good sign at all

7 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Ideally, when the train stops you should be able to see the escape wheel spin a tiny bit backwards (counterclockwise as seen from the side opposite the dial) as already mentioned

Unfortunate not all watches have back spin. But  even without the backspin the gear train still should turn very very easily which this one does not sound like it is.

 

[Melissalea]

I am sorry, but I think I got it confused with this Elgin wristwatch I am also working on that is doing the same thing. I apologize for the confusion. I did try adding the wheels 1 or two at a time. I am now wondering if my tweezers have made the movement magnetized? Would that cause these problems or would it not move at all?

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, Melissalea said:

I am sorry, but I think I got it confused with this Elgin wristwatch I am also working on that is doing the same thing. I apologize for the confusion. I did try adding the wheels 1 or two at a time. I am now wondering if my tweezers have made the movement magnetized? Would that cause these problems or would it not move at all?

It's why it's always nice to have a picture of the watch you're working on just so that we all know what it is.

Then you're having the same problem on Two watches. This is where you need to take a step back and reevaluate the situation and identify the common factor. So the common factor of two watches doing the exact same thing would be the watchmaker as the most likely cause of a problem. Then as a newbie starting out usually not always but newbies will look at all the obscure or things that could be a problem and will typically not see the big problem or the elephant in the room as I sometimes call it. A lot of times it could be just procedural things or something else.

Then out of curiosity what was the condition of both watches before you started in other words did they run at all or were they already Nonfunctional? This is because a lot of times newbies want to start with broken watches learning how to fix them and then we have to try it figure out what the problem is something you're doing or whether the watch had a problem initially.

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, Melissalea said:

Ok so I did as NickelSilver suggested. I took out the balance and the pallet fork seems to snap to either side most of the time. sometimes it would need a little more of a nudge and then it would snap. With the balance and pallet out, I wound it again and all the wheels seemed to spin freely just fine. After a bit, it stopped. Then it would move more and stop again. I took off the bridge for the escape wheel and third wheel, checked everything and replaced the bridge. It still seems to get hung up somewhere. Mind you, this movement does not have any jewels. The pivot holes are just metal holes so I added a little more lubrication, but that did not seem to help. 

I throughly enjoy getting the most i can from these non jewelled movements. The wear in the plate and bridge bearings makes it tough though, this is where you need to be looking, excessive end and sideshakes is likely the cause and not really fixable below a well skilled watchmaker. I would start by inspecting all the sideshake ( look for pivots and arbors wobbling around a lot in their holes ) in the train beginning with the barrel, the sideshake is very important for maintaining good wheel teeth and pinion leaf meshing.  You will learn a lot from a movement like this that will have very obvious defects that can be subtle and overlooked in jewelled movements. It will give you an idea of the precision required for movements to run smoothly. Enjoy.

[VWatchie]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I would start by inspecting all the sideshake ( look for pivots and arbors wobbling around a lot in their holes ) in the train beginning with the barrel, the sideshake is very important for maintaining good wheel teeth and pinion leaf meshing.

This is very good advice and here is a video showing how to inspect simply and practically.

 

[rehajm]

6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

throughly enjoy getting the most i can from these non jewelled movements.

There is something satisfying about that, innit?

[Melissalea]

They both ran but not consistently so basically I serviced them, but that did not fix any problems they already had. Thanks, everyone for your continued assistance. I know I am new at this, but I have fixed quite a few watches already so I know I can do it. I just need to keep learning and keep inspecting these parts for anything I might've missed.