Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Following on from my question about identifying screws in the AS2063 movement that basically fell out of the case in bits, I’m pleased to report that I’ve got it all back together, and the movement is running pretty well. 
 

But…

There’s something wrong with the keyless works and hand setting. It’s fine in winding and quickset date position - these work - but in hand setting position winding the crown turns the whole gear train.  I don’t really understand how it’s meant to work. It doesn’t have a traditional friction fit cannon pinion.  The second wheel is unusual with a pair of smaller pinions on it, which seem to interact with the barrel and the motion works. 
 

Could this be the problem? I must admit I just cleaned it and popped it in place when reassembling the gear train. I’ve lubricated the pivots but didn’t do anything to the extra bits on the second wheel. 
 

Does this make sense and is anyone able to figure out what I’m doing wrong? Thanks in advance, as always. 
 

ETA - the parts list calls it the Great Wheel, not second wheel. 

Edited by Bonefixer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Bonefixer said:

Following on from my question about identifying screws in the AS2063 movement that basically fell out of the case in bits, I’m pleased to report that I’ve got it all back together, and the movement is running pretty well. 
 

But…

There’s something wrong with the keyless works and hand setting. It’s fine in winding and quickset date position - these work - but in hand setting position winding the crown turns the whole gear train.  I don’t really understand how it’s meant to work. It doesn’t have a traditional friction fit cannon pinion.  The second wheel is unusual with a pair of smaller pinions on it, which seem to interact with the barrel and the motion works. 
 

Could this be the problem? I must admit I just cleaned it and popped it in place when reassembling the gear train. I’ve lubricated the pivots but didn’t do anything to the extra bits on the second wheel. 
 

Does this make sense and is anyone able to figure out what I’m doing wrong? Thanks in advance, as always. 
 

ETA - the parts list calls it the Great Wheel, not second wheel. 

Post some pictures , some good close ones of the parts you've described. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Post some pictures , some good close ones of the parts you've described. 

That will mean dismantling the gear train, which with 5 pivots to align was a pain. Probably going to have to though. I'm convinced it's something to do with the great wheel. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Post some pictures , some good close ones of the parts you've described. 

It looks like the canon pinion function is part of this great wheel. The pinion nearest the clip runs the minute wheel on the dual side. The pinion nearest the wheel is driven by a small wheel from under the setting lever cover plate that engages in hand setting position. 
 

So when assembled the crown was driving the whole great train. Does this mean the pinions are too tight? Should I attempt to disassemble this great wheel and lubricants?

IMG_0036.jpeg

IMG_0037.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, Bonefixer said:

It looks like the canon pinion function is part of this great wheel. The pinion nearest the clip runs the minute wheel on the dual side. The pinion nearest the wheel is driven by a small wheel from under the setting lever cover plate that engages in hand setting position. 
 

So when assembled the crown was driving the whole great train. Does this mean the pinions are too tight? Should I attempt to disassemble this great wheel and lubricants?

IMG_0036.jpeg

IMG_0037.jpeg

What this extra disk next to the pinion? Thats not part of the assembly 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/25/2024 at 8:19 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

I dont understand why a patreon membership would have limited places ??

 

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

What this extra disk next to the pinion? Thats not part of the assembly 

Also at a strange angle  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

 

Also at a strange angle  

It shouldn't be attached 

 

50 minutes ago, Bonefixer said:

It looks like the canon pinion function is part of this great wheel. The pinion nearest the clip runs the minute wheel on the dual side. The pinion nearest the wheel is driven by a small wheel from under the setting lever cover plate that engages in hand setting position. 
 

So when assembled the crown was driving the whole great train. Does this mean the pinions are too tight? Should I attempt to disassemble this great wheel and lubricants?

IMG_0036.jpeg

IMG_0037.jpeg

The pinions look independent of each other, not in alignment,  but the clip is bothering me or have you just placed that on the pivot end? 

1 hour ago, Bonefixer said:

It looks like the canon pinion function is part of this great wheel. The pinion nearest the clip runs the minute wheel on the dual side. The pinion nearest the wheel is driven by a small wheel from under the setting lever cover plate that engages in hand setting position. 
 

So when assembled the crown was driving the whole great train. Does this mean the pinions are too tight? Should I attempt to disassemble this great wheel and lubricants?

IMG_0036.jpeg

IMG_0037.jpeg

Found a cannon pinion maintaining clip in the tech sheet, is that the disk on the end and is broken.  Whatever happened to exploded diagrams 😠

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It shouldn't be attached 

It most certainly should be there, but it should fit better than that.

Here is what it should look like.

IMG_0620a.thumb.JPG.3e00a0cb47a338e751e8343d3a6b8d7f.JPG

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Doctor, If the train turns when hands setting, this means that the train is not blocked. And this is true for all kinds of trains design. The train is normally blocked by the lever. So, put the lever in place and try again. If the train turns again, search where You have placed some wheel upside down and it is not meshed with the next one in the chain. The other thing is the amount of friction that is needed to overcome when setting hands. Yes, the friction part here is in the great wheel, and it needs lubrication. If the parts are dry, then friction will arise, seizing will happen and thus risk of breaking of teeth in the train or breaking of joint wheel/pinion.

I don't know this calibre, but I guess the clip is part of the friction device. But for sure it stays tilted, which is not normal. So, pay attention to it and see what is wrong there

Edited by nevenbekriev
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Marc said:

It most certainly should be there, but it should fit better than that.

Here is what it should look like.

IMG_0620a.thumb.JPG.3e00a0cb47a338e751e8343d3a6b8d7f.JPG

Couldn't see it on the tech sheet , picture is a bit fuzzy though . Is that to keep the pinions pressed on Marc ?

Screenshot_20240427-203600_Drive.jpg

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Is that to keep the pinions pressed in Marc

It's a little circlip style retaining clip to keep the pinion from riding up out of position.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The part was how it fell out of the movement - the train wheel bridge wasn’t screwed in. 
 

I’ll probably dismantle the part, if I can, to work it out. 
 

The train of wheels ran fine - it was only once the keyless works were installed I noticed the problem. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have you got the pallet fork installed in the movement when you see the train move when using the setting works?

As nevenbekriev said, without the pallet fork to lock the train, the behaviour you are describing is normal.

If this is happening with the pallet fork installed, you have a problem in the gear train, it should be immobile when the pallet fork is locking the escape wheel. 

The fit of the circlip above the pinions on that wheel is crooked in your pictures, it should sit flat up against the upper pinion as in Marc’s picture. 

Hope that helps,

Mark

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Mercurial said:

Have you got the pallet fork installed in the movement when you see the train move when using the setting works?

As nevenbekriev said, without the pallet fork to lock the train, the behaviour you are describing is normal.

If this is happening with the pallet fork installed, you have a problem in the gear train, it should be immobile when the pallet fork is locking the escape wheel. 

The fit of the circlip above the pinions on that wheel is crooked in your pictures, it should sit flat up against the upper pinion as in Marc’s picture. 

Hope that helps,

Mark

Pallet fork was in. I’d had the movement running ok, and only removed the balance to flip it over and install the keyless works and date mechanism. The pallet fork wasn’t locking the gear train when hand setting - it was oscillating as the escape wheel rotated. This may have been in one direction only - can’t remember. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Bonefixer said:

Pallet fork was in. I’d had the movement running ok, and only removed the balance to flip it over and install the keyless works and date mechanism. The pallet fork wasn’t locking the gear train when hand setting - it was oscillating as the escape wheel rotated. This may have been in one direction only - can’t remember. 

The cannon pinion (be it conventional style or what you see in this movement) should slip on its arbour so the hands can be set independently without affecting the gear train. 

If there is too much friction between the cannon pinion and the second wheel, turning the hands to set them backwards can sometimes force the escape wheel teeth to overrun the pallet stones, creating the behaviour you describe. The train is running in reverse when this happens. 

This can often chip the pallet stones. I’d say at least half of the watches I’ve inspected with very tight cannon pinions had chipped pallet stones. Hopefully this isn’t the case with your watch. 

I’m not familiar with this movement but you need to get the friction in the cannon pinion adjusted correctly. 

Hope this helps,

Mark

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks everyone for your helpful replies. I think between us we’ve worked out what’s going on. Next job is to have a proper look at this great wheel assembly, see if I can remove the clip and the friction fit pinion, give the bits a good clean, then put it back together with a bit of blue grease. I’ll also get the pallet fork under the microscope to see if it’s ok or been damaged. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bonefixer said:

I'll almost certainly find it now I've ordered another. 

Yep thats the way it goes. The trick is to lead it into a false sense of security. Go through all the motions of ordering another one but dont actually click that final buy it now button, then stand up say " oh well at least I have another one on the way" .  It will pop its head out and shout " SUCKER ! " . They've done studies you know 60% of the time it works everytime. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

New Great wheel arrived, rebuilt the watch and managed not to break anything. Had a minor issue with a screw I'd found to use to secure the date corrector wheel - it was fouling the escape wheel. Changed for a shorter one and it seems all good. 
 

Running pretty well I think - not yet adjusted it, will let it run for 24 hours first. 

IMG_0055.jpeg

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Most all my 404 candidates are coming from swap meets and "antiques fairs". One more $4US plus battery and elbow grease. Unnamed digital on a decent ss bracelet. Gains 10 seconds a day so not that accurate...
    • I voted.for the 6.99 assuming £, which works out to $8.74US at the current exchange rate.
    • £4.04 originally worked out to $5, or thereabouts accounting for currency fluctuations. Inflation calculator from 2020 (when the thread was started, though not when Andy coined the term) says we're looking at $6 currently. What currency is the 6.99 inflation adjusted figure cited in the poll? $6 may still seem restrictive, but don't forget that's part of the point. It's a challenge. Thrill of the hunt and all. Diamonds in the rough. Also, and my personal angle on the game, a fun and inexpensive way to learn watchmaking skills.
    • Dear all My first experience servicing a quartz watch after servicing as an hobby my mechanic watches for many years. This is an old Certina that was given to me by a friend, with  a ETA/ESA 9362 movement. Before service I put a new battery and the watch was working. After servicing the movement stopped working. i understand that there might be a lot of reasons for this (including the fact that I used technics and oils from mechanic movements on this one  ), but at this stage I would only need to check if the electronic module is good. Don't have a quartz tester but only a multimeter. You will see on the photos that the battery contact is broken and needs soldering. With the battery in the movement I can confirm that the electronic module had power (1.57v). Question: what basic tests can I do with a multimeter to confirm that the electronic module is good? how to check if the coil is good and if there is pulse in the electronic module? what contacts should I use to test it? (I saw some videos on you tube but was not able to find the specific test procedures for the ETA 9362). Any information to help me check if the reason for the movement to stop is on the electronic or mechanic part of the watch is much appreciated. Many thanks
    • Dear all My first experience servicing a quartz watch after servicing as an hobby my mechanic watches for many years. This is an old Certina that was given to me by a friend, with  a ETA/ESA 9362 movement. Before service I put a new battery and the watch was working. After servicing the movement stopped working. i understand that there might be a lot of reasons for this (including the fact that I used technics and oils from mechanic movements on this one 😞 ), but at this stage I would only need to check if the electronic module is good. Don't have a quartz tester but only a multimeter. You will see on the photos that the battery contact is broken and needs soldering. With the battery in the movement I can confirm that the electronic module had power (1.57v). Question: what basic tests can I do with a multimeter to confirm that the electronic module is good? how to check if the coil is good and if there is pulse in the electronic module? what contacts should I use to test it? (I saw some videos on you tube but was not able to find the specific test procedures for the ETA 9362). Any information to help me check if the reason for the movement to stop is on the electronic or mechanic part of the watch is much appreciated. Many thanks    
×
×
  • Create New...