Pocket watch escape wh

[Bonefixer]

I bought a broken pocket watch to fix from ebay. It has a missing glass and missing hands and wasn’t running. I dismantled it all, and the only issue I have found is a broken pivot on the escape wheel. 
 

It’s a Mahlen watch. No numbers on the movement as far as I can tell. The base plate is 48.8mm - 19’’’ I think - and the wheel itself is about 7.7mm in diameter, with the pivot being about 4.8mm (I added a bit on due to the broken off bit)

How can I source a new part? The hands and glass I’m sure I can manage. 

[RichardHarris123]

As usual we need photos.

[Bonefixer]

47 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

As usual we need photos.

What of? The wheel itself (standard lever escapement) or the plate with no numbers on it?

[rossjackson01]

Bbefixer.

I had the same type of problem when I first joined the forum. A pocket watch movement with no markings. Photographs of the the movement, and the members came to the rescue. Within days I had a number of suggestions. Found the details and information of the movement on ranfft. Never managed to get a donor, but at least I know what I need.  The members are really knowledgeable.

[Bonefixer]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

As usual we need photos.

What of? The wheel itself (standard lever escapement) or the plate with no numbers on it?

Does that help, from the ebay listing?

[nickelsilver]

To identify movements the standard practice is the actual diameter of the movement, and a front on image of both the movement side and the dial side- minus the dial. The setting mechanism (under the dial) is considered the "fingerprint" of the movement and 9/10 leads to full identification.

[Mercurial]

Nickelsilver is right, movement diameter and keyless works ‘fingerprint’ are important for identifying movements.

That said, this appears to be a 7 jewel version of the a Revue 30 movement. 

A quick search with google turns up parts movements, and individual parts should be quite easy to come by. 

Hope that helps,

Mark

[nevenbekriev]

Yes, it looks like GT Revue 30.

Doctor, You can not replace escape wheel by the dimensions You listed. One needs to know much more things like number of leaves of the pinion and it's diameter, the position in high of the table and the pinion, the hight between the pivots, the exact pivots diameter... And then, even if suitable wheel is found, one will need to know how to adjust the pallets position correctly.

Restoring antique movements is something different than replacing parts. In older movements parts are not interchangeable, this means spare parts do not exist. Here the case is different, but still escapement adjustment will be needed if a wheel from a donor is found. So may be it will be easier to restore the donor for You...Restoring antique movements usually means making of the parts needed and this requires knowlage and working on lathes skill. In this case repivoting of the wheel is the natural solution, but there is a long way that one must walk untill getting ready for such work.

[Waggy]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

In older movements parts are not interchangeable

This is a very valid point and a subtlety that I was unaware of until fairly recently, learning all the time, the video below explains this point well:

 

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, Mercurial said:

Revue 30 movement

the bestfit book refers to Revue as wittnauer and the fingerprint we have this.

[Mercurial]

5 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Restoring antique movements is something different than replacing parts. In older movements parts are not interchangeable, this means spare parts do not exist.

I agree with you completely for older watches, but the Revue 30 dates from 1910 onwards. 

They were still being made up until at least WW2, and there is reasonable parts interchangeability in my experience, assuming same jewel count.

Very early Revue 30 movements will be less tolerant of replacement parts being fitted without adjustment than the later ones. 

Escapement parts were the last to require hand fitting to eachother in each watch and are thus unique to the movement but the other parts from even an early Revue 30 should be interchangeable within watches with the same jewel count.
 

Since the escape wheel is part of the escapement there is no guarantee, but it’s likely an escape wheel from another 7 jewel Revue 30 will fit this watch. The escapement will need adjustment (pallet stones, safety action etc) may need adjustment to set up the escapement optimally, though.

Best Regards,

Mark

 

 

[Bonefixer]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm probably not going to track down a replacement or donor movement - this cost me about £10 from ebay and it's very much a practice piece rather than a restoration. 
 

I've watched a video on how to repivot a wheel. Seems very easy with the right lathe, tools and expertise. But I'm not going to go down that route at this stage in my 'career'. I have got another idea though to get the watch running again - watch this space. 

[nevenbekriev]

2 hours ago, Bonefixer said:

 I have got another idea though to get the watch running again - watch this space. 

I will advice to share the idea first here before doeing something to the movement

[Bonefixer]

4 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

I will advice to share the idea first here before doeing something to the movement

If I can’t re-pivot the wheel, the logical thing to do is to descend the pivot hole.  Plan is to either stick a suitably sized hole jewel (from a barrel bridge or something) or fashion a blob of epoxy on the underside of the escape wheel cock so the wheel sits on its one pivot on the base plate and the staff with the broken off pivot (which I’ll polish as best as I can) becomes the upper pivot. As long as it doesn’t foul the 4th wheel it should work?

I know it’s a bodge job, and if this were a rare movement, or belonged to someone else I would not do this. I’m just interested to see if I can get the thing to run. 

[nevenbekriev]

Sorry, the friction will be so great that the wheel will barely turn, if the movement will start at all, the amplitude will be verry lo.

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, Bonefixer said:

this cost me about £10 from ebay and it's very much a practice piece rather than a restoration. 

there are various approaches to learning watch repair. A lot of people want to jump right in and every single watches something to be repaired restored. But other times like this it's disposable it's here for you to learn and when you're through learning you throw it away.

25 minutes ago, Bonefixer said:

I know it’s a bodge job, and if this were a rare movement, or belonged to someone else I would not do this. I’m just interested to see if I can get the thing to run. 

yes you definitely should try this you have a learning movement you need to learn and the best way to learn is by doing something.

[Bonefixer]

Not sure how well it shows on the picture, but a little blob of epoxy has formed a new pivot point for the escape wheel. I'll let it cure for 24 hours and then clean and reassemble the movement. It might work, don't know how long it'll last but hopefully long enough for me to be able to write "Daniels - London" on the dial and sell it for megabucks

[Neverenoughwatches]

39 minutes ago, Bonefixer said:

Not sure how well it shows on the picture, but a little blob of epoxy has formed a new pivot point for the escape wheel. I'll let it cure for 24 hours and then clean and reassemble the movement. It might work, don't know how long it'll last but hopefully long enough for me to be able to write "Daniels - London" on the dial and sell it for megabucks

Ah ok, i can see we need to watch out for any watches you decide to sell on the Bay or elsewhere. Can you please post them here first before doing that. 

[nevenbekriev]

I guess You had to try, as it would be hard to sleep without that try, but, I know the result before the experiment... As I told before, the friction will be so big that the wheel will not turn. The pivots have to be thin and polished - the bigger the number of the wheel (2th, 3gh, 4th...), the thinner the pivot.

What You are trying to do is possible, but forming the new thin pivot must be done on lathe. Thus the wheel will get shorter, but can have new pivot without the drilling for normal standard repivoting. Then piece of brass can be soldered under the pivot hole in the bridge and new hole drilled in it to form the new bearing.  Well, this way is not the recommended one, not quite correct, but it is possible to do for the excersize... When I say lathe, lathe may be verry simple, someting like turns, but made of what one has in reach of his hands. If You want to try, I will try to guide

[Bonefixer]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

I guess You had to try, as it would be hard to sleep without that try, but, I know the result before the experiment... As I told before, the friction will be so big that the wheel will not turn. The pivots have to be thin and polished - the bigger the number of the wheel (2th, 3gh, 4th...), the thinner the pivot.

What You are trying to do is possible, but forming the new thin pivot must be done on lathe. Thus the wheel will get shorter, but can have new pivot without the drilling for normal standard repivoting. Then piece of brass can be soldered under the pivot hole in the bridge and new hole drilled in it to form the new bearing.  Well, this way is not the recommended one, not quite correct, but it is possible to do for the excersize... When I say lathe, lathe may be verry simple, someting like turns, but made of what one has in reach of his hands. If You want to try, I will try to guide

The wheels turned fine. I set the escape wheel in the epoxy when it had just ‘skinned’ and wasn’t set, made sure it spun with the 4th wheel, and let it set. 
 

After cleaning I assembled the barrel and wheel train - all fine. Moving the barrel the escape wheel spun freely. I put a bit of 9010 in my epoxy setting. 
 

It went wrong when I put the pallet fork in. It wasn’t seated right (no jewels) and the escape wheel  knocked a pallet jewel out. I have no idea how to reset a pallet jewel - epoxy again?

I’m not spending any more time on this one - it’s missing hands and the front half of the case anyway, and I have more watches ready to put on the bench. 

[JohnR725]

42 minutes ago, Bonefixer said:

It went wrong when I put the pallet fork in. It wasn’t seated right (no jewels) and the escape wheel  knocked a pallet jewel out. I have no idea how to reset a pallet jewel - epoxy again?

I’m not spending any more time on this one - it’s missing hands and the front half of the case anyway, and I have more watches ready to put on the bench. 

I usually don't read new introductions but when you came to the group did you want to learn watch repair? The reason I ask is your watch seems so suffered some damage under your hands. And now you're ready to move on to a new patient and have you learned? I often relate watch repair like learning to be a doctor lots of practicing. Even though this is a damaged watch have you practice taking it apart and putting it together a whole bunch at times so you feel confident that the next watch you probably won't break anything?

Then when watches were invented specifically pallet forks they didn't have epoxy glue which even if they did they wouldn't you used anyway because the pallet stones need to be moved around they need to be adjusted. so the substance of choice for holding pallet stones and roller jewel's in is shellac. It's a really interesting substance were if it's warmed up at melts the palace on can be moved around hopefully the correct position when it cools shellac hardens back up in the pallet stone will be held in place. If you're carefully could probably put your pallet stone back just warm up the fork carefully ideally there's a tool for this and your pallet stone would be fine.

[Bonefixer]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

I usually don't read new introductions but when you came to the group did you want to learn watch repair? The reason I ask is your watch seems so suffered some damage under your hands. And now you're ready to move on to a new patient and have you learned? I often relate watch repair like learning to be a doctor lots of practicing. Even though this is a damaged watch have you practice taking it apart and putting it together a whole bunch at times so you feel confident that the next watch you probably won't break anything?

Then when watches were invented specifically pallet forks they didn't have epoxy glue which even if they did they wouldn't you used anyway because the pallet stones need to be moved around they need to be adjusted. so the substance of choice for holding pallet stones and roller jewel's in is shellac. It's a really interesting substance were if it's warmed up at melts the palace on can be moved around hopefully the correct position when it cools shellac hardens back up in the pallet stone will be held in place. If you're carefully could probably put your pallet stone back just warm up the fork carefully ideally there's a tool for this and your pallet stone would be fine.

This watch was damaged when I got it. I didn't break the escape wheel pivot, and I bodged a fix with epoxy to see if I could get it running. I'm not yet ready to get into lathe work, or shellacking jewels, and may never be. But I'm learning plenty with each watch I tackle.