Name of the part on a Hunter Case

[FlameOfWrath]

What is the name of the part on a hunter case for a keywind/keyset movement that opens the cover over the face of the watch? It's normally just a push button but I've got a case that is missing this button and just has a hole into the watch case which pushes the lever inside to release the cover over the crystal.

Thanks!

 

[oldhippy]

Can you upload a photo please.

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, FlameOfWrath said:

button

It probably has some official term but push button would work. Then if you're missing one this is typically a lathe project. have to turn something out of brass typically. Then whatever the case is made out of could be soldered on the end so that matches the case material.

[oldhippy]

Now does he mean the button or on some you have a nipple about where 2 is on the dial which you push in too move the hands. That is why I asked for a photo. 

[JohnR725]

15 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

That is why I asked for a photo. 

Yes the thing we keep asking for just to give us a picture because it can be so helpful at cutting down the confusions and speeding up with answer. Yes I find it amusing that people seem to think that we should instantly grasp whatever it is they're talking about because we just should

8 hours ago, FlameOfWrath said:

I've got a case that is missing this button and just has a hole into the watch case which pushes the lever inside to release the cover over the crystal.

My interpretation of this is hunting case with a push button where you would normally find the crown on the newer watch except the push button is missing.

 

 

 

 

 

[FlameOfWrath]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Yes the thing we keep asking for just to give us a picture because it can be so helpful at cutting down the confusions and speeding up with answer. Yes I find it amusing that people seem to think that we should instantly grasp whatever it is they're talking about because we just should

My interpretation of this is hunting case with a push button where you would normally find the crown on the newer watch except the push button is missing.

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I should have included pictures.

 

 

[tomh207]

The crown is missing?

[JohnR725]

8 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

The crown is missing?

Watch doesn't have a crown its before crowns existed.

14 hours ago, FlameOfWrath said:

keywind/keyset movement

 

55 minutes ago, FlameOfWrath said:

Sorry, I should have included pictures.

Now that we have pictures it's still a lathe project. Or possibly a manufacturing jeweler could make something. No matter what somebody has to make a replacement this is not a part that would be available off the shelf.

[tomh207]

Sorry @JohnR725 I don’t work on pocket watches and made a question as to if that was what was missing, my bad.

 

Tom

[FlameOfWrath]

9 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Sorry @JohnR725 I don’t work on pocket watches and made a question as to if that was what was missing, my bad.

 

Tom

That is where the crown would go if it existed for this watch. I tried looking for a "crown" that was just a button but no luck. I guess I'll have to see how much it will cost to have someone make one vs. re-casing the watch.

[JohnR725]

46 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

 I don’t work on pocket watches and made a question as to if that was what was missing, my bad

No need to apologize none of us knows everything on this group that's why were here.

36 minutes ago, FlameOfWrath said:

That is where the crown would go if it existed for this watch. I tried looking for a "crown" that was just a button but no luck. I guess I'll have to see how much it will cost to have someone make one vs. re-casing the watch.

I suspect even if you could go back in time to when the case was new you would not be able to purchase an off-the-shelf button. Because these things were still being hand made and assembled. But at the time it would've been a lot easier to find somebody make a new button for you.

Then if it's not too much trouble it would be nice to have a picture of the movement. This is a watch repair discussion group and I like to see pictures of movements.

[RichardHarris123]

How is the button held in place.  I'm assuming the button has a shaft to press on the release mechanism but something must stop it from falling out. 

[JohnR725]

9 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

but something must stop it from falling out. 

I was wondering if anybody would notice?

Problem is we can't see something in the picture. Usually where the bow goes in either it protrudes far enough to go into an opening in the button itself or something else may go in there.  The problem I'm having is I once made of button for watch a very long time ago and I very clearly remember the whole that goes through the button itself I just don't quite remember whether there was a separate piece inserted in or whether the bow itself protrudes far enough the holes into the whole which is not around whole I think it's more of a slot so that the button you can go in and out a little bit

In the case of early American 18 size pocket watches where they were using levers setting you didn't have to pull the crown out but it's still at a pushbutton affect there would be a set screw in the back the part holding the crown. Almost not even noticeable typically find

 

[oldhippy]

The sleeve tube is missing from the inside. See arrow.

[FlameOfWrath]

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

No need to apologize none of us knows everything on this group that's why were here.

I suspect even if you could go back in time to when the case was new you would not be able to purchase an off-the-shelf button. Because these things were still being hand made and assembled. But at the time it would've been a lot easier to find somebody make a new button for you.

Then if it's not too much trouble it would be nice to have a picture of the movement. This is a watch repair discussion group and I like to see pictures of movements.

Here’s a photo of the movement. I think it is kind of an unusual 1876 Grade 60 Elgin but unfortunately it seems to have a broken mainspring and I’m suspicious about the balance staff being broken as well. Probably not a good buy. I did have a crystal that fit it.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

The sleeve tube is missing from the inside. See arrow.

That is definitely where you'd find the sleeve if it had one. Not all the watches have them and typically they only have them to hold in the stem which this watch does not need.

59 minutes ago, FlameOfWrath said:

I think it is kind of an unusual 1876 Grade 60 Elgin but unfortunately it seems to have a broken mainspring and I’m suspicious about the balance staff being broken as well.

What makes you think the watch is unusual?

 

[FlameOfWrath]

6 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

That is definitely where you'd find the sleeve if it had one. Not all the watches have them and typically they only have them to hold in the stem which this watch does not need.

What makes you think the watch is unusual?

 

Just the entry on the Pocket Watch Database. It estimates that only about 21,500 were produced in this grade/model.  According to the Elgin history there the just started using the "Elgin National Watch Co." in 1875 instead of "National Watch Co.".  But maybe I just drank the kool-aid.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/guide/companies/elgin
 

[JohnR725]

2 minutes ago, FlameOfWrath said:

Just the entry on the Pocket Watch Database. It estimates that only about 21,500 were produced in this grade/model.

The pocket watch databases interesting how it does things and that leads to a amusing issues. For instance Elgin has literally thousands of mistakes. Did you notice if we look up your serial number it's in a mixed category isn't that interesting? Then I need the research something I'll get back to you on your mixed watch.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/elgin/476040

 

1 hour ago, FlameOfWrath said:

it seems to have a broken mainspring and I’m suspicious about the balance staff being broken as well. Probably not a good buy.

The unfortunate problem of vintage. A lot of times people tell you to get a pocket watch the start with seems like a good idea but rapidly you can end up with needing way more than something much more new would be. But at times he picked the right wristwatch it's probably going be just cleaning but on a pocket watch you're always going to have issues. Like typically the mainspring will be set if it's not broken. Then balance staffs quite common.

 

 

[RichardHarris123]

It's missing It's regulator. 

[JohnR725]

9 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

It's missing It's regulator. 

It's why it's nice to have a discussion with a group because we each tend to be looking at? I tend to focus on very specific thing when I'm looking at watches and often times sometimes things just go unnoticed like the regulator. It does appear to be missing.

Since I'm still on the pocket watch database lets swipe a picture with a regulator. And yes sometimes when I'm looking at watches on eBay all notice that the regulators do seem to go missing no idea why they do snap on but they don't just fall off all by themselves.

 

Oh I almost forgot where did you purchase this? In other words was this purchased out of the US or in the US?

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by JohnR725

[FlameOfWrath]

35 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

It's why it's nice to have a discussion with a group because we each tend to be looking at? I tend to focus on very specific thing when I'm looking at watches and often times sometimes things just go unnoticed like the regulator. It does appear to be missing.

Since I'm still on the pocket watch database lets swipe a picture with a regulator. And yes sometimes when I'm looking at watches on eBay all notice that the regulators do seem to go missing no idea why they do snap on but they don't just fall off all by themselves.

 

Oh I almost forgot where did you purchase this? In other words was this purchased out of the US or in the US?

 

In the US. Yes. I forgot to mention the regulator is missing. If you hold it at just the right angle you can't see the button missing on the hunter case either and while I did ask for a photo of the movement I didn't notice the regulator arm was missing. The balance staff probably broke when the regulator arm snapped off.

Anyone know what the mechanism behind the button is supposed to look like? I don't think it needs a spring to make the button go out because the spring is on the latch inside the case but there must be something that goes in there to keep the button from falling out. I have some other cases like this one but I don't want to go taking them apart to find out.

Edited September 12, 2023 by FlameOfWrath

[FlameOfWrath]

In case anyone is wondering. I found a great article on Dave's Watch Parts that describes how to replace the pusher in a hunter pocket watch with diagrams and an example. Just look on his page at the bottom or use this direct link to get the PDF. It does require a lathe to do this. While I have one I don't have a motor for it yet.

 

[JohnR725]

6 minutes ago, FlameOfWrath said:

I found a great article on Dave's Watch Parts that describes how to replace the pusher in a hunter pocket watch with diagrams and an example.

That was a good find it's amazing all the interesting stuff that you can find on Dave's website.

Another websites is interesting for Elgin is this one for parts

http://www.elginwatchparts.com/

3 hours ago, FlameOfWrath said:

In the US.

The reason I asked where the watch was purchased was that both Elgin and Waltham exported a lot of watches out of the country. C can end up with an export grade like this that should've been exported but is still in the country?

The problem for pocket watch database for identifying your watch is the database is based on 1950 Elgin parts list catalog. The problem with the parts list catalog is it's used for identifying parts it's not necessarily used to identify watches. This is why in the database for your watches says it's a mixed because for parts they're all the same kind of but they probably weren't all the same watch the database just doesn't clarify that because it's looking at a newer parts list where things were consolidated versus the much older parts list.

Then parts for older Elgin watches can become interesting. What becomes interesting is sometimes the parts have changed like mainsprings you look in the catalog you see it's this specific part you get the part you find at the end isn't quite right because the original was a different end for instance I've had that for the mainsprings then you have to modify the end of the mainspring to fit your watch. Then for your balance staff will have to measure what's in there to see which one it is even though you have a part number that's my favorite Elgin part number to make fun of. That's because for one part number you end up with four different balance staffs different for size reasons and then of course a whole bunch of different pivot variations so will need to measure the old staff to see which one it is. Then when you're placing an order for it have to make sure you're specifying which of the four that you want or make sure if it's an eBay seller they're actually describing it properly

I then coming up with a regulator might be interesting I'm not sure if anyone on eBay is selling those it might be to ask Dave from Dave's parts whether he might have a regulator and he might actually be good for all the parts but you still have to identify which staff in which mainspring you need as opposed to saying I have this and assuming that the parts in the listing is correct

 

 

[oldhippy]

You don't think I'm right when I said the sleeve is missing, so take a look here and you will find they are also called tubes. https://www.esslinger.com/watch-case-tubes/

[JohnR725]

44 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

You don't think I'm right when I said the sleeve is missing,

I don't think this ever had a sleeve let me show you some pictures and evolution of case styles

here's a picture showing a sleeve and stem and a crown as far as I know the only reason you have a sleeve is to hold the stem in the case. This watch doesn't need a stem because it doesn't need a crown so no sleeve just a push button to open the hunting case

Let's look at an evolution of cases before sleeves existed. The case on the left is a hunting case it does have a crown though it does not have the sleeve and the case on the right doesn't need a crown or a button as it's not a hunting case

Pushing of the crown in the lid opens up and we can see the watch

Now even though it has a crown it doesn't need a sleeve because the crown is hopefully never pulled out. Notice the wording of hopefully it's really annoying when people try to pull the crown out that isn't supposed to come out as trying to deal with the mess they make can be challenging today

Now if you look at this image you can see I pulled the lever out this is a lever setting watch lever comes out crown does not at least hopefully not. It's quite annoying to try to fix the mess when somebody tried really hard to pull crown out that's not supposed to come out in this particular incident

Now we get to the backside of both cases you notice anything interesting on the left-hand case up near the crown? Does that look like a set screw? Commonly found that 18 size American pocket watches with lever setting or well some of their other watches

. In other words we do not need a sleeve because you do not have to pull the crown of this is before sleeves existed

Here we can see a better image of the setscrew it's also a pain when the setscrew head gets stripped and try to get the thing out sick and disassembles a pain.

Then as I've commented in the past I always like movement pictures so let's see what's in these cases as the probably something you haven't seen before. The bigger case is not 18 size at the 17 size watch.

Then before see the movement we can see key wind keys Set.

Then occasionally what you'll find on eBay for instance is somebody will case up one of these watches in a case that does have a crown and a sleeve but it doesn't connect to anything. This always leads to confusion when you're looking at the case you're looking for a specific movement as they just needed a case which happen to have a crown.

Then before I close out the PDF here is another example of sleeve with stem and the tools typically used to adjust. Most but not all sleeves are threaded in and they have to be in a very exacting a location for the watch. So when the crown is in urine whitening position when you pull it out it's in setting if it's in the wrong position it you won't go into winding and/or setting. Some sleeves do not Thread in and they have a locking ring to hold them in place.

Wrong type case wristwatch type they don't thread in it relies on the movement the hold the sleeve in the right place.