Smiths Ingersoll Cal 627

[mikepilk]

I just bought this watch as, I like the look of it, it has an interesting movement with balance bridge, and it was cheap 

The movement is Smiths Ingersoll cal 627. 

The dial says "Made in Great Britain" - which usually means a Swiss movement. If it was a Smiths movement it would be "Made in England".

But, I can find no info at all on this movement - I tried the identification in Ranfft. I haven't looked on the dial side yet.

Any ideas what it is ?

[oldhippy]

I can tell you its British made, so not a swiss movement. You can get them with  calendar as well. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by oldhippy

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I just bought this watch as, I like the look of it, it has an interesting movement with balance bridge, and it was cheap 

The movement is Smiths Ingersoll cal 627. 

The dial says "Made in Great Britain" - which usually means a Swiss movement. If it was a Smiths movement it would be "Made in England".

But, I can find no info at all on this movement - I tried the identification in Ranfft. I haven't looked on the dial side yet.

Any ideas what it is ?

It is indeed a Smiths movement Mike. Ingersoll Smiths Services and i also think Newmark all had same calibre movements at one time or another. These were the cheap end of Smith's market made in Wales, hence GB labelled, at the Ystradgynlais factory as opposed to their Cheltenham factor. I have this same calibre in a Smiths diver, a rather expensive watch to buy for what it is.  I'm sure you've seen all the Smiths Empires knocking around Ebay all made in the same Welsh factory . The 17 jewels in yours is not a common find though, must have been towards the end of their production.  Smiths started to source out their watches to Switzerland around late 70s early 80s.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[RichardHarris123]

Interesting, I knew about the made in England/ Britain difference but why is there no information on the 627? 

[mikepilk]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It is indeed a Smiths movement Mike. Ingersoll Smiths Services and i also think Newmark all had same calibre movements at one time or another. These were the cheap end of Smith's market made in Wales, hence GB labelled, at the Ystradgynlais factory as opposed to their Cheltenham factor. I have this same calibre in a Smiths diver, a rather expensive watch to buy for what it is.  I'm sure you've seen all the Smiths Empires knocking around Ebay all made in the same Welsh factory . The 17 jewels in yours is not a common find though, must have been towards the end of their production.  Smiths started to source out their watches to Switzerland around late 70s early 80s.

Thanks for the info. I'm used to the Smiths movements being gold coloured with large bridges.

I'm surprised you say they are the cheap end. At first glance it doesn't look bad quality.  I was attracted by the balance bridge rather than cock. The only other watch I've serviced with a balance bridge was a Rolex.

I found an article suggesting that at the end of the company they used some Japanese Hamazawa movements. I haven't found a pic of one similar to mine, but some of the pics I've found do use balance bridges.

Edited August 14, 2023 by mikepilk

[Neverenoughwatches]

39 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I'm surprised you say they are the cheap end. At first glance it doesn't look bad quality.  I was

Most were cheap from the Wales factory, but no yours doesn't look particularly cheap. Just had a look at mine, i was wrong its a 542 with only 5 jewels their typical cheap style of product, it does have the same winged balance bridge .

[mikepilk]

Obviously the same brand. I must have the deluxe version 

I have never bought a watch with less than 15 jewels, and doubt I ever will.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

Thanks for the info. I'm used to the Smiths movements being gold coloured with large bridges.

I'm surprised you say they are the cheap end. At first glance it doesn't look bad quality.  I was attracted by the balance bridge rather than cock. The only other watch I've serviced with a balance bridge was a Rolex.

I found an article suggesting that at the end of the company they used some Japanese Hamazawa movements. I haven't found a pic of one similar to mine, but some of the pics I've found do use balance bridges.

2 Ingersolls a 627 and a 7 jewel 612 again with a balance bridge  Ingersoll left their joint venture with Smiths at thd end of the 60s

28 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Obviously the same brand. I must have the deluxe version 

I have never bought a watch with less than 15 jewels, and doubt I ever will.

Would you believe I've seen this movement in a 2 grand watch, the same watch that you saw on my bench

Edited August 14, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[mikepilk]

24 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Would you believe I've seen this movement in a 2 grand watch, the same watch that you saw on my bench

Wow. I did well for £20 then 

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Wow. I did well for £20 then 

Not bad at all, actually the one i posted from ebay is way overpriced and the hour and minute hand are not original,  so someone is trying to lift a buyer's leg.  These Smiths and Ingersoll divers with these calibres that have a low jewel count are more realistically priced between £250 and £500. Still not bad for a shitty movement.

[mikepilk]

@Neverenoughwatches how do you get the shock jewels out?

The slot in the side of the chaton isn't big enough to let the spring out 

[Neverenoughwatches]

14 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

@Neverenoughwatches how do you get the shock jewels out?

The slot in the side of the chaton isn't big enough to let the spring out 

It was a while ago but i think the spring has a different profile at each end. Try the other end of the spring .

[mikepilk]

2 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It was a while ago but i think the spring has a different profile at each end. Try the other end of the spring .

I did, it's the same both ends. The lower on came out fine. The top spring is larger.

In the end I had to push an oiler underneath the arms to bend them a bit, and it pinged out. It will be fun trying to get it back in.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I did, it's the same both ends. The lower on came out fine. The top spring is larger.

In the end I had to push an oiler underneath the arms to bend them a bit, and it pinged out. It will be fun trying to get it back in.

i will have to look now. I think i have a spare balance to try. 

[mikepilk]

Don't risk breaking anything - those springs will be hard to find.

It's all apart and ready for cleaning. 

Most of the movement looks quite good quality, but a few parts do look cheap, like the escape wheel and pallets.

And it's a reverse wound mainspring - something I only normally see in Japanese movements.

I'll be interested to see how it runs.

 

[mikepilk]

I don't know how well you got yours running @Neverenoughwatches, but considering it's a 'cheap' movement, the performance is pretty impressive. Without any tweaking to the balance :

Dial Up :

Crown Down :

 

[rehajm]

Thanks for sharing this one. I have heard there were some higher quality movements from Ystradgynlais but have never seen one...

[mikepilk]

8 hours ago, rehajm said:

Thanks for sharing this one. I have heard there were some higher quality movements from Ystradgynlais but have never seen one...

I was totally unaware of the Ystradgynlais factory until @Neverenoughwatches mentioned it.

I don't know how I missed it as they produced about 30 millions watches!  

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news , https://anordain.com/blogs/news/smiths-watches

But, as mentioned, they were "entry level watches". So I'm glad to have found this example of a better quality movement. 

After running for 12h it's looking good - 

You can keep your ££££ Rolex, I'll use my £20 watch from Wales 

Edited September 6, 2023 by mikepilk

[Neverenoughwatches]

15 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I don't know how well you got yours running @Neverenoughwatches, but considering it's a 'cheap' movement, the performance is pretty impressive. Without any tweaking to the balance :

Dial Up :

Crown Down :

 

Not as well as yours Mike but the diver i have is only a pin pallet movement one  of the cheaply made. Itsonly the fact that its a fairly rare diver that gives it some value. 

8 hours ago, rehajm said:

Thanks for sharing this one. I have heard there were some higher quality movements from Ystradgynlais but have never seen one...

Probably concentrated mostly on a mass produced product that people could afford after the war. The 17 jewel British made ones like Mike's do occasionally pop up on Ebay for a fraction of the price of the Englsh made Astral, de-luxe, Imperial and Everests. 

[rehajm]

4 hours ago, mikepilk said:

You can keep your ££££ Rolex, I'll use my £20 watch from Wales 

Haha- yes! I've mentioned here and elsewhere the story of my holding court in the middle of a circle of gents wearing Daytonas and Omegas as they admired my lowly Smiths Empire with the loud tick. Not many Americans have heard of Smiths, maybe Everest but that's it. I never let on about the economy...

Edited September 6, 2023 by rehajm

[mikepilk]

I have since seen an example of this 627 movement used in a Smiths watch. 

I was going to just give this watch a service and refurb and sell it. It's impressed me, so I think I'll add it to my collection of British watches.

I have a 19J Smiths Imperial - one of my favourite watches.

Edited September 6, 2023 by mikepilk