Illinois Pocket Watch - issues & questions

[TimeWerks]

Good day!  I started servicing an Illinois pocket watch and came across a couple interesting findings and questions.

First of all I am not totally clear on the particular model, but believe it is a Model 1 size 6/0 hunter with lever set according to the Complet Guide to American Pocket Watches.  The movement plate has SpringField engraved on it, is 34.5 mm in diameter and the serial number is 644615.

I need to order a new mainspring for it since it is completely set, and wanted to make sure I had the right model.  I ordered an illinois mainspring #47370 with 1.41 mm wide, 0.11 mm strength and 12.5 inches long (5 den x 10 den) with a T end  (fingers crossed).

The watch was completely seized up with absolutely no end or side shake.  As I took it apart, I realized what the main issue had been.

 

When I lifted the train bridge off, all the wheels were glued to it.  The lubrication had totally dried up, so I had to soak the group in alcohol to get them to release!  Many other parts appeared glued down.  This watch had not be serviced in decades.

The spring had a tiny bit of power, but I could not figure out how to release the power on this watch.  I eventually found the click after I took the mainspring barrel out since it was underneath it.

I am guessing that you might have to fish a thin hook of some sort into the hole on the side of the movement (see arrow)  to grab the click and pull it away while holding the crown.  Let me know if that is the right procedure, or if there is a better approach since the user manual I had was a bit weak on the subject .  I was thinking there might even be a lever missing.

My next problem after disassembly is that I cannot remove the jewel plate covering the lower balance staff jewel even after removing the screws that held it in place.  I tried putting a drop of alcohol on the jewel as well with no luck, and was considering heating up the main plate.  Did not want to damage the edges of the plate trying to pry it off with a screw driver, so any experience with this type of problem would be appreciated.

You can see the oil dried in a red blob behind the hole jewel.

The final question I have is regarding the surface of the bridges.  They are very tarnished even though I ran then through an ultrasonic cleaner a couple of times using L&R watch solution and rinse.  Not sure if I should try something else like deox-007  clock cleaning solution, brasso cleaner, or just leave it as is for historical purposes?

Cheers

Terry

 

 

[Galilea]

Hi Terry, I am going to make some popcorn, sit back and watch this for answers. I have no answers but have some of the same questions. Plus, it's nice to see some pocket watches here.

So the cement-like grime - you don't show much of it but when I have encountered it, I think of making a poster about the dangers of never servicing a watch. It could be like "This is your watch" (showing and After pic), "This is your watch on sludge" (before pic) sort of a thing. Or maybe "Don't let your watch get old before it's time".

I am thinking about guessing, but I really shouldn't because I don't like having to eat my words later. Oh heck, I'll try. Do you think maybe your movement still isn't so bright as some after ultrasonic cleaning because it went too long, or you didn't use a rinse, or the watch was permanently pigmented? I don't know because I am just learning. However I have had the same problem before.

Cautionary tale: I had two very old very dirty very broken movements that I designated guinea pigs. I was determined to get them clean but they were stubborn. I just kept doing it over, then forgot to take them out of solution for several days. Maybe it was a week or two. When I fished them out, they were clean alright but the whole damascene patterns were off and the metal was a pinkish color.

Final comment, about the click. It's clear you know more than I do, but it looks like a regular click to me, why can't it be released from the top? 

[Neverenoughwatches]

35 minutes ago, Galilea said:

Cautionary tale: I had two very old very dirty very broken movements that I designated guinea pigs. I was determined to get them clean but they were stubborn. I just kept doing it over, then forgot to take them out of solution for several days. Maybe it was a week or two. When I fished them out, they were clean alright but the whole damascene patterns were off and the metal was a pinkish color.

Final comment, about the click. It's clear you know more than I do, but it looks like a regular click to me, why can't it be released from the top? 

Some cleaning solutions will eat into the brass, i did something similar with elma pro ammoniated. I left a barrel to clean in solution for a week while i was on holiday. Ammonia will brighten in a few minutes in an ultrasonic, after too long  it eats into the brass.

[TimeWerks]

Thank you for the reply Galilea and NeverEnoughWatches.   I used L&R watch cleaning solution for 5 minutes, and two 4 minute cycles of L&R Rinse #3 before hitting the dryer.  It did lighten up some, but I would like it brighter.  Have not used ammoniated solutions yet since they tend to remove any lacquer coating, but it might be worth it in this case.

Regarding the click, it was not visible at all until I removed the main barrel (which is too late to remove power).  You can see a bit of the barrel on the very top of the image above the ratchet wheel.  When you look at the very first image of the whole watch, the click is located under the main barrel bridge, and mainspring barrel.  The hole in the side of the main plate is just next to the big plate screw on the bottom right hand corner of the movement.

[Nucejoe]

With the exception of shelac and hairspring all else can survive a soak in petrolium products over night and in Coca-Cola up to 48 hrs, then use a tooth brush with powder laundry detergent to brush parts and keep brushing when rinsing under tap water, as for the jewel/ setting if doen't want to come off after a long soak then we got to examine the piece under micrscope to hopefully see whats keeping it there.

[Galilea]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

With the exception of shelac and hairspring all else can survive a soak in petrolium products over night and in Coca-Cola up to 48 hrs, then use a tooth brush with powder laundry detergent to brush parts and keep brushing when rinsing under tap water, as for the jewel/ setting if doen't want to come off after a long soak then we got to examine the piece under micrscope to hopefully see whats keeping it there.

WHAT??!!? Are you kidding me, Coca Cola??  NFW, I thought that was an urban folk legend. Cheaper than L & R, I know that much.

Please confirm you are serious and tell anything else I need to know. Although reading back, I think you did already tell me the process.

[Nucejoe]

 Yes serious, I am no chemist, just knew it works, a fellow member here told us phospheric acid is the active ingrediant in it, thats what  disloves fat and oily content of your hamburger. 

Takes hours of soak to disolve  the oil thats been dried over many years.

Rgds

[JohnR725]

16 hours ago, TimeWerks said:

They are very tarnished even though I ran then through an ultrasonic cleaner a couple of times using L&R watch solution and rinse.

an interesting thing about commercial or possibly DIY mixed products if they have ammonia. Ammonia is beautiful for cleaning products it makes things bright and shiny. But it also removes tarnish and what else does it do?

13 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Some cleaning solutions will eat into the brass, i did something similar with elma pro ammoniated. I left a barrel to clean in solution for a week while i was on holiday. Ammonia will brighten in a few minutes in an ultrasonic, after too long  it eats into the brass.

you didn't give us the final outcome? In another discussion group out there someone went away on vacation I left something very expensive in the cleaning machine and when they came back they had jewels no watch.

The ammonia makes things bright and shiny removes tarnish. It should never be elevated in temperature as it will be more aggressive. You only want to do about for five minutes you can keep an eye on it maybe but I would go too long. Once it takes off the tarnish it doesn't know that it should stop it will continue and if your solution is turning a blue-green color that's copper coming off your plates if you leave it too long you get frosty plates the beautiful shinier trying to achieve will be destroyed if you leave it too long in the cleaning machine a little is good a lot as bad an extreme amount is very very bad for all of us who have done that for one reason or another will never do that again.

16 hours ago, TimeWerks said:

I need to order a new mainspring for it since it is completely set, and wanted to make sure I had the right model.  I ordered an illinois mainspring #47370 with 1.41 mm wide, 0.11 mm strength and 12.5 inches long (5 den x 10 den) with a T end  (fingers crossed).

then don't worry a don't need the cross your fingers you just need a hydraulic press and anything will go in whether or not a work afterwards well?

Did you notice something in your picture? Let me snip out something

notice the marks on your barrel they look like what exactly? If you had the Illinois parts book it should tell you what you have hopefully whatever was in there before was right but might not have been. I usually like the measure it and then look in my reference books to see what it should be. Those marks well T end Springs far for a variety of American pocket watches. But they don't all interchange and some of the aftermarket are not quite the same specifications as the original. so typically when I see that it tells me somebody was filing on the barrel to get the mainspring to fit

now problem for mainsprings they're not as many as they used to be and the part numbers of changed with time for instance from the 1923 Illinois parts book here's what they have listed

so parts reference book wasn't hopefully helpful. Then another reference book brings up a problem? Looks like this book it's a T brace? Is there anything filed off from inside the barrel?

then looks like you did order the right spring. But I do find it interesting it's a T brace not a pure T end which probably explains why somebody was filing with whatever's in there now.

 

 

Mainsprings Cas-Kar Catalog 2018.pdf

20 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

phospheric acid is the active ingrediant in it, thats what  disloves fat and oily content of your hamburger. 

is also what dissolves your teeth and there is a Wikipedia link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Galilea said:

WHAT??!!? Are you kidding me, Coca Cola??  NFW, I thought that was an urban folk legend. Cheaper than L & R, I know that much.

Please confirm you are serious and tell anything else I need to know. Although reading back, I think you did already tell me the process.

Can also remove rust. Weak to strong  Lemon juice ( ascorbic acid ) vinegar  ( diluted acetic acid ) Cola ( heavily diluted phosphoric acid ) then proprietary products, some contain high concentrations of phosphoric acid. I used a well known one that dissolved an escape wheel in six hours . 

[JohnR725]

On 8/1/2023 at 10:03 PM, TimeWerks said:

6/0 hunter with lever set according to the Complet Guide to American Pocket Watches.

another source for figuring out what you have is the pocket watch database

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/illinois/644615

where we have a interesting problem? database claims that it's a 6 size and you have 6/0 size which is not the same thing.

On 8/1/2023 at 10:03 PM, TimeWerks said:

34.5 mm in diameter

fortunately we have a size I'm attaching a PDF which confirms six size is the correct size. I wonder does that change my assessment of the mainspring?

now I have to question the mainsprings size because this is what the listing says. That may explain why someone was filing on it because they did change the size. But this would answer my confusion over the type of end. without a very interesting to see how well your mainspring fits versus what I perceive should go in there and I be curious what the actual dimensions of the spring was that came out if the dimensions you have up there or the spring they came out.

On 8/1/2023 at 10:03 PM, TimeWerks said:

My next problem after disassembly is that I cannot remove the jewel plate covering the lower balance staff jewel even after removing the screws that held it in place.  I tried putting a drop of alcohol on the jewel as well with no luck, and was considering heating up the main plate.  Did not want to damage the edges of the plate trying to pry it off with a screw driver, so any experience with this type of problem would be appreciated.

typically on American pocket watches when you remove the screws the jewels will not fall out. This requires you to go to the other side and pushed them out with a tool designed for that or you can make something with peg wood. Then we do reassembling you push the hole jewel in first followed by the end stone wouldn't try to push them both at the same time not recommend make sure you get the end stone aligned with its scruples and be careful the little screws like the strip is they are really tiny.

 

watch-ligne-size-chart.pdf

[Galilea]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

another source for figuring out what you have is the pocket watch database

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/illinois/644615

where we have a interesting problem? database claims that it's a 6 size and you have 6/0 size which is not the same thing.

I was wondering when someone would bring up the PWDB, great site and great people

Well, they do make the occasional error, and I can ask. There is about half an inch difference between the two sizes, should be easy to tell.

regardless, and also ... PWDB list no illinois mainsprings for a 6s, but two for 6/0, one 2" longer.. here, neither with a T...

If this is not solved yet I have another idea, which is I can look through my illinois catalogs and also through my stock, I am bound to have one, or more.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Galilea said:

Well, they do make the occasional error,

always nice to start the day off with a laugh.

3 hours ago, Galilea said:

PWDB list no illinois mainsprings for a 6s, but two for 6/0, one 2" longer.. here, neither with a T

if you click on the link to the pocket watch database goes the parts on the left-hand side. Scroll down the list until you get the Springs. Go down that list until you get to mainspring no picture part number 171. Then go up higher in the discussion where I posted the picture out of the Illinois parts book and part number 171 corresponds to mainspring for a six size watch.

3 hours ago, Galilea said:

There is about half an inch difference between the two sizes, should be easy to tell.

yes about that? let's look what else the parts book has for us initially in the parts book they'll help you are try to help you identify your watch and one of things they do is drawings of plate layouts like this

as you can see from the drawing up above it looks like the picture from way up above

versus this one that doesn't quite look the same does it

 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

16 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 I used a well known one that dissolved an escape wheel in six hours . 

Thanks for sharing matey. Valuable info. 

Rgds

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Thanks for sharing matey. Valuable info. 

Rgds

A rust removal product called Rustins, it has a high concentration of phosphoric acid.

[TimeWerks]

Thank you for all the responses, I very much appreciate it.  I have filed away all the great reference material provided to me.

The measurement of the movement is about 35 mm, so based on the ligne size chart it should be a size 6.  It also was in a Hunter style case, and has 11 jewels (strangely the pallet fork has a jewel on the cock, but not on the main plate).

The pocketwatch database looks pretty accurate, serial number is in range. Production year was 1886 and an engraving on the watch is for 1888.

The mainspring I pulled out of the watch may have not been original size.  Good eye John spotting those file marks on the barrel.  The m/s measured 1.75 mm wide, 0.175 mm thick and approximately 13 inches long with a T-end.

The barrel depth is 2.35 mm, barrel cover is 0.35 mm, leaving room for <2.0 mm wide spring.  I ended up ordering two different springs and the first one I received (meant for size 0 & 3/0)  is identical in dimension to the one I pulled out, so i am pretty sure it will fit but likely more power than original.  I also orders a size 6/0 spring, which I realize is too narrow now, but I could not find one that was for a size 6.  I will try the one I just received.

Thank you John for showing the tool required to get the jewel plate out.  I was hesitant to do it originally since I didn't want to mess with the divisions, but I finally pulled out the seitz jewel press and it came out as two pieces with no problem pushing the jewel from the outside towards the inner side of the movement plate.

I used a fine knife blade to separate the two parts of the jewel assembly.

Then finally was able to clean out the nasty dried on lube.

The finished product above.   I should not have a problem positioning it back to the right depth coming pushing it back from the inside out.  The top of the assembly will be flush with the movement.  Lesson learned for the future.

Next post will describe the movement cleaning experiment.

[Galilea]

43 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

f you click on the link to the pocket watch database goes the parts on the left-hand side. Scroll down the list until you get the Springs. Go down that list until you get to mainspring no picture part number 171. Then go up higher in the discussion where I posted the picture out of the Illinois parts book and part number 171 corresponds to mainspring for a six size watch.

What are you saying, good god man, i am dizzy. Why would i look it up since you already did, and I do seriously believe everything you say, and you do know everything...

Incidentally, I thought it was fiercely clever of you in the very first place to spot those marks on the movement, and in the end, what did the OP pull out? The mainspring john said would be there, even though every source there is tells us it should not have been there!   So from the top...

[JohnR725]

1 minute ago, TimeWerks said:

(strangely the pallet fork has a jewel on the cock, but not on the main plate).

basically if you look at most watches you'll find that the side that you can see the backside will look nicer than the dial side for instance the jewels will usually be physically bigger things we finished nicer. Or in the case of pocket watches jewels on one side none on the other occasionally.

27 minutes ago, TimeWerks said:

The barrel depth is 2.35 mm, barrel cover is 0.35 mm, leaving room for <2.0 mm wide spring.  I ended up ordering two different springs and the first one I received (meant for size 0 & 3/0)  is identical in dimension to the one I pulled out, so i am pretty sure it will fit but likely more power than original.  I also orders a size 6/0 spring, which I realize is too narrow now, but I could not find one that was for a size 6.  I will try the one I just received

the unfortunate problem of vintage watches are getting parts including mainsprings. If the watch was relatively common there is probably an aftermarket mainspring. But I notice as you go down in size for a lot of the American watches small pocket watch is getting a mainspring becomes much more difficult. Sometimes you can look on eBay and someone will be selling an old spring. Otherwise I just go through the list of other American pocket watch springs and see if anyone else as anything close that will work which is probably what happened before

[Galilea]

On 8/2/2023 at 12:08 AM, Galilea said:

, I am going to make some popcorn, sit back and watch this for answer

See? The greatest show on earth, I think i am moving on to hot dogs.

[JohnR725]

39 minutes ago, Galilea said:

What are you saying, good god man, i am dizzy. Why would i look it up since you already did, and I do seriously believe everything you say, and you do know everything...

 

5 hours ago, Galilea said:

PWDB list no illinois mainsprings for a 6s,

the problem is I'm confused here you said and I'm quoting no mainsprings for six size Illinois so I was explaining yes they do show the mainsprings so why am I confused here?

[Galilea]

Just now, JohnR725 said:

 

the problem is I'm confused here you said and I'm quoting no mainsprings for six size Illinois so I was explaining yes they do show the mainsprings so why am I confused here?

oh nothing, it was just that it seemed like I had to do the hokey-pokey to follow you 

[TimeWerks]

Forgot to post the barrel pictures.  It is cool that I know they are the correct barrels since they stamp the movement serial number inside them and it matches. 

--------------

Cleaning Tests

In the future I will try an experiment with cola, but for now I stuck with some watch and clock making products I had on hand to see what I could do without causing distress to this 1886 watch.

In the following tests, the main plate was not cleaned further, only the two bridges to have a base comparison.

First test was with L&R Watch Solution, and #3 Rinse in an Ultrasonic cleaner.

The watch was clean, but still looked very discolored.

Second test was with Polytech DEO-X007 in a heated ultrasonic followed with a 30 second dip into Polytect #2CB to stop the chemical process, followed by a water rinse.

The picture doesn't do enough justice, but the DEOX made it noticeably lighter.  The stains still persisted though.

 

The final test was using Cape Cod polishing cloth to clean the tarnish, followed up with Ultra-CR in an ultrasonic to remove the polishing compounds.

I lightly buffed it using the cloth by hand with the motivation to not impact the writing on the surface.  I could have kept going to try to remove a couple of deep stains, but stopped satisfied that it was good enough.

So I will use L&R for regular nickel plated watches.  Use DEOX-007 for clocks since it does a pretty good job on brass, is safer for the environment and since clock movements are usually not visible. And Cape Cod polish to spruce up brass pocket watches. 

Edited August 3, 2023 by TimeWerks

[JohnR725]

On 8/3/2023 at 11:35 AM, TimeWerks said:

It is cool that I know they are the correct barrels since they stamp the movement serial number inside them and it matches. 

that is both a good and a bad thing. typically with all the plate components sometimes as you found the barrel the balance wheel occasionally the hour wheel will have all or part of the serial number. This is because the parts cannot interchange with any other watch. So they had to stay together for manufacturing purposes. This is why it's usually very bad to start mixing and matching American pocket watch parts because typically is not going to work well even if the parts book claims they will interchange.

[Galilea]

On 8/3/2023 at 11:35 AM, TimeWerks said:

And Cape Cod polish to spruce up brass pocket watches. 

How can you tell when one of these is used up, or how many times do you use it? I got stuck with 20 of those when Amazon sent the wrong thing but even unused entirely, they cannot be returned.

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

that is both a good and a bad thing. typically with all the plate components sometimes as you found the barrel the balance wheel occasionally the hour wheel will have all or part of the serial number. This is because the parts cannot interchange with any other watch. So they had to stay together for manufacturing purposes. This is why it's usually very bad to start mixing and matching American pocket watch parts because typically is not going to work well even if the parts book claims they will interchange.

I would be surprised if that remained the case once the automobile industry was standardized, as time pieces would have been a logical first in the trickle down of technology. reaction 

Maybe this is why people avoid Frankenwatches, and I thought it was more of a psychological reaction to change by purist collectors. It seemed like an ancient notion, back to the static universe worshipped in ancient Egypt.

[Neverenoughwatches]

30 minutes ago, Galilea said:

How can you tell when one of these is used up, or how many times do you use it? I got stuck with 20 of those when Amazon sent the wrong thing but even unused entirely, they cannot be returned.

I would be surprised if that remained the case once the automobile industry was standardized, as time pieces would have been a logical first in the trickle down of technology. reaction 

Maybe this is why people avoid Frankenwatches, and I thought it was more of a psychological reaction to change by purist collectors. It seemed like an ancient notion, back to the static universe worshipped in ancient Egypt.

🖐  Standardisation became a more common practice as wristwatches started to be the norm.

[JohnR725]

39 minutes ago, Galilea said:

I would be surprised if that remained the case once the automobile industry was standardized

 

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Standardisation became a more common practice as wristwatches started to be the norm

it's always thought of in this country or when the automobile came into existence mass production interchangeable parts. You can look in the parts catalog for watches and it says the parts interchange and typically they don't list the variations.

I was doing a project for someone with 12 size Illinois watches he picked the watch because of sheep because the parts catalog indicated only one set apart snow variations and the watch was made over 30 years??? A perfect example of mass production everything was not the same don't even kid yourself over 30 years things when change it just the parts book didn't show the changes. Even things like the our wheels that were not marked with a serial number will not interchange with another watch kids are slightly different size.

Typically the way the watches were made is there were made in batches and even in the batches there will be variations because the tools will wear slightly it's really not instantly get into making really precise measuring tools and then measure all of this and make sure everything is within production

I was watching a video on YouTube of company making CNC watchmaking equipment and they were showing how the machine is cutting the parts than they can take the parts and go to an optical comparator look at the parts verify their within the specification and if they're not adjust the CNC machine so that they are within specifications now that exist today it did not exist when most of these watches were made

there is one of my favorite Elgin at least was more truthful on the variation of parts a lot of the watch companies because the books were printed at specific times do not necessarily cover all the variations so let's look at balance staffs how many variations could we have for one part number after all the mass-produced they're all the same part number?

You will note that you do get a variation for pivots size because we look at all the groups that I didn't circle their grouped better different by pivots size but look at the first ones the 18 size the early the first watches how many different staffs do we have all with one part number

49 minutes ago, Galilea said:

first in the trickle down of technology

here let's look at something from the 30s look at the machinery and ask yourself how fast or easy it would it be to upgrade the factory look up big the factory is. My favorite is the machine I think it's making plates how many thousands of parts does it have even to just read school that machine would take how long

so while the watch companies may have pioneered making parts by machinery they still have a lot of hand adjusting even in the video pay attention you'll see the women take apart build do some sort of manipulation with it and they'll try it out even in the 30s are still doing a lot of hand fitting and yet in the video are those automobiles I see in the parking lot.