Finding a Balance Staff/having one made

[FlameOfWrath]

I've got a US Watch Co. pocket watch with a broken balance staff. I can't seem to find one in stock anywhere and since they were a small company there aren't a lot of them around. I've heard quotes of $300 for a new balance staff and maybe a year's wait to have it made. With CNC and everything available today why are parts for antique pocket watches so hard to come by?

I'm new so maybe this has been discussed before.

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, FlameOfWrath said:

I've got a US Watch Co. pocket watch with a broken balance staff. I can't seem to find one in stock anywhere and since they were a small company there aren't a lot of them around. I've heard quotes of $300 for a new balance staff and maybe a year's wait to have it made. With CNC and everything available today why are parts for antique pocket watches so hard to come by?

I'm new so maybe this has been discussed before.

The original manufacurer has maybe long since gone or at least only the trade name taken over. So the parts are no longer commercially produced and what new old stock remains in the world is gradually drying up. Anyone with any available stock would know this and expect a premium price for a rare part. And having parts custom made is always expensive. 

[Klassiker]

7 hours ago, FlameOfWrath said:

why are parts for antique pocket watches so hard to come by?

What else do you own, of a similar age, that you can still get spares for? Like NEW says, what was once in stock has reduced or been used up completely, and not been replenished. I don't know any production techniques which can produce one-offs in steel for a price comparable to series production, CNC included. 300 USD isn't over the top for the work involved.

[nickelsilver]

Even with a high performance CNC lathe there's a lot of other work involved in making a staff. My actual cutting time in the lathe (manual lathe) for a staff is maybe 30 minutes; the rest of the time is taking the initial measurements*, heat treating, and finishing. 300 is a good price (I'm around there, and other watchmakers tell me I should double it, haha).

 

*The measuring is a big deal. For example, I have an old Longines in from a watchmaker friend. He had removed the old staff but found that the hole in the balance had been enlarged so the new (and correct) staff was way too loose to fit correctly. In addition, the old staff was longer than original, and the mainplate had been "pipped" to raise the balance cock a bit. After removing the pips, the cock sat at the right height for the original staff length. The jewel in the mainplate had been replaced with one with far too large of a hole, so that got straightened out. The old staff was slightly oversize for the roller table, which had been broached to fit, so that was corrected on the new staff dimensions.

 

Basically, for old stuff, even if you have the original drawing from the factory, it's no guarantee that it will work correctly. Everything has to get measured (and we're talking microns making a difference on certain fits), verified, then made to those dimensions. The actual cutting, which is what the CNC would do, is a fraction of the total work. The older the watch, the higher the chance that things have gotten screwed up over time- and the lower the chance of finding spare parts, which if found, might still not fit .

[Nucejoe]

You mean you haven't found/ bought a stem for your watch as of yet.

Helps to know the caliber, who knows I might have one to send you.

 

[JohnR725]

11 hours ago, FlameOfWrath said:

US Watch Co. pocket watch with a broken balance staff. I can't seem to find one in stock anywhere

Usually when I'm looking for an American pocket watch balance staff I will look in the following Swartchild's American Balance Staffs It's a very handy publication to have because getting American pocket watch staffs is usually not a straightforward thing even if they are available. This means that while you can look up the actual staff you need is still have to measure the staff in the watch and verify that it actually is the staff you're going to order. Then when you get your new staff you have to measure that the make sure it actually is what you think it is.

Then the problem with US watch company is I think they made more than one watch you didn't specify which one. Not that it really matters US watch company is listed at one time staffs may have been available but notice the reference to special order and made to sample. Which basically tells us getting a balance staff would've been difficult

11 hours ago, FlameOfWrath said:

With CNC and everything available today why are parts for antique pocket watches so hard to come by?

Well yes parts are hard to find and it's not just for vintage it's for everything. Parts Are typically only available if the company supplied parts not all companies supplied parts. If they're really popular parts conceivably they're all gone. Then yes there were some parts made by companies other than a factory but only if they were really popular. No point in making obscure parts that you're never going to sell. Which unfortunately affects all parts nobody wants to make modern parts to fit vintage watches if there is no market for those parts or not enough market to justify making those parts.

 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

52 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Usually when I'm looking for an American pocket watch balance staff I will look in the following Swartchild's American Balance Staffs It's a very handy publication to have because getting American pocket watch staffs is usually not a straightforward thing even if they are available. This means that while you can look up the actual staff you need is still have to measure the staff in the watch and verify that it actually is the staff you're going to order. Then when you get your new staff you have to measure that the make sure it actually is what you think it is.

Then the problem with US watch company is I think they made more than one watch you didn't specify which one. Not that it really matters US watch company is listed at one time staffs may have been available but notice the reference to special order and made to sample. Which basically tells us getting a balance staff would've been difficult

Well yes parts are hard to find and it's not just for vintage it's for everything. Parts Are typically only available if the company supplied parts not all companies supplied parts. If they're really popular parts conceivably they're all gone. Then yes there were some parts made by companies other than a factory but only if they were really popular. No point in making obscure parts that you're never going to sell. Which unfortunately affects all parts nobody wants to make modern parts to fit vintage watches if there is no market for those parts or not enough market to justify making those parts.

 

 

 

It does feel like this market for repairing watches, not just for us hobbyists but for professionals alike, is going to get more and more difficult as time goes on. If its not current Swiss manufacturers restricting parts except for the very professional then its an ever decreasing amount of old stock. There will come a time when no more parts are available. So unless you are on the # i am completely independent and can make any part i need # professional side, the hobbyist and basic repairer for a living is going to come to an end. And its actually makes me quite sad to say i think that the blame for the diminishing parts lays heavily on the hobbyist using them up to repair what they break. Sobering thought that makes me feel guilty about the ones I've damaged.

[rehajm]

25 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It does feel like this market for repairing watches, not just for us hobbyists but for professionals alike, is going to get more and more difficult as time goes on. If its not current Swiss manufacturers restricting parts except for the very professional then its an ever decreasing amount of old stock. There will come a time when no more parts are available. So unless you are on the # i am completely independent and can make any part i need # professional side, the hobbyist and basic repairer for a living is going to come to an end. And its actually makes me quite sad to say i think that the blame for the diminishing parts lays heavily on the hobbyist using them up to repair what they break. Sobering thought that makes me feel guilty about the ones I've damaged.

I had not thought of it this way but have been experiencing this in practice. I've recently cleaned up what could be a lovely Rolex cal 700 with horrible positional error. Before I try to adjust I've been looking for some 'safety net' replacement parts but have turned up nothing. I'm considering leaving it be as kinetic art rather than a timekeeper...

[nickelsilver]

26 minutes ago, rehajm said:

I had not thought of it this way but have been experiencing this in practice. I've recently cleaned up what could be a lovely Rolex cal 700 with horrible positional error. Before I try to adjust I've been looking for some 'safety net' replacement parts but have turned up nothing. I'm considering leaving it be as kinetic art rather than a timekeeper...

I've made a number of staffs and even vibrated hairsprings for that caliber .

[Neverenoughwatches]

51 minutes ago, rehajm said:

I had not thought of it this way but have been experiencing this in practice. I've recently cleaned up what could be a lovely Rolex cal 700 with horrible positional error. Before I try to adjust I've been looking for some 'safety net' replacement parts but have turned up nothing. I'm considering leaving it be as kinetic art rather than a timekeeper...

I'm guessing completely and imagine so would most other folk about this. A strong possibility that unused old parts will run out before the appearances of vintage watches does. Supply of watches to repair i think comes from two main sources. 1. Ones that have been around and around the block on ebay and various other sites that have had numerous hobbyists etc inc. muppets that are just after making a few quid on the side that gave up on them along with attempts at repairing watches altogether because it was too much effort.  Lets face it you have to be a certain type of person to stick with this for many years, patient, persistent, diligent,determined,  delinquent , passionate, have more than a couple of brain cells to rub together and then have money to burn as well. I seem to fit this description fairly well ( the delinquent part anyway ). So theres one source that have been battered around and have used up thousands upon thousands of parts that could have been used in a much more professional manner. And source 2 that i can think of is the new onto ebay watches, the ones that are on their first time around that have been pulled from passed relatives draws during clearances. Generally the younger generation are much less sentimental than us oldies and bang em on ebay for a few quid ( I'm certainly not having a poke at our younger members here I'm sure they are passionate enough to care,but theres no denying it is a fact and does happen)  hopefully these would be ones will fall into the right hands that take care of them,but many will not and the circle of damage and using up of parts will continue as new folk jump into the hobby, have a go then disappear. Apologies about the rant , the bloody unfolding destruction inside my current project is peeing me right off. 

[rehajm]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

I've made a number of staffs and even vibrated hairsprings for that caliber .

The work horse Rolex caliber of that era, yes? 

…and how are you at timing screws? Haha…

 

15 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I'm guessing completely and imagine so would most other folk about this. A strong possibility that unused old parts will run out before the appearances of vintage watches does. Supply of watches to repair i think comes from two main sources. 1. Ones that have been around and around the block on ebay and various other sites that have had numerous hobbyists etc inc. muppets that are just after making a few quid on the side that gave up on them along with attempts at repairing watches altogether because it was too much effort.  Lets face it you have to be a certain type of person to stick with this for many years, patient, persistent, diligent,determined,  delinquent , passionate, have more than a couple of brain cells to rub together and then have money to burn as well. I seem to fit this description fairly well ( the delinquent part anyway ). So theres one source that have been battered around and have used up thousands upon thousands of parts that could have been used in a much more professional manner. And source 2 that i can think of is the new onto ebay watches, the ones that are on their first time around that have been pulled from passed relatives draws during clearances. Generally the younger generation are much less sentimental than us oldies and bang em on ebay for a few quid ( I'm certainly not having a poke at our younger members here I'm sure they are passionate enough to care,but theres no denying it is a fact and does happen)  hopefully these would be ones will fall into the right hands that take care of them,but many will not and the circle of damage and using up of parts will continue as new folk jump into the hobby, have a go then disappear. Apologies about the rant , the bloody unfolding destruction inside my current project is peeing me right off. 

Yes I have my share of Fleabay specials, too. The experience more of a watch rescue situation. Gratifying most if the time, I feel. In the case of said Rolex it is fresh from the country auction house- showing its age but managed to avoid the oil dunkers…

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

14 minutes ago, rehajm said:

The work horse Rolex caliber of that era, yes? 

…and how are you at timing screws? Haha…

 

Yes I have my share of Fleabay specials, too. The experience more of a watch rescue situation. Gratifying most if the time, I feel. In the case of said Rolex it is fresh from the country auction house- showing its age but managed to avoid the oil dunkers…

 

Nice to find a virgin movement unravaged, to my mind if you break it then you fix it. Oh the unawareness of the complexities of a watch, it must be absolute bliss. Rant almost over, Mr. Delivery man has brought be treats

[FlameOfWrath]

13 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Usually when I'm looking for an American pocket watch balance staff I will look in the following Swartchild's American Balance Staffs It's a very handy publication to have because getting American pocket watch staffs is usually not a straightforward thing even if they are available. This means that while you can look up the actual staff you need is still have to measure the staff in the watch and verify that it actually is the staff you're going to order. Then when you get your new staff you have to measure that the make sure it actually is what you think it is.

Then the problem with US watch company is I think they made more than one watch you didn't specify which one. Not that it really matters US watch company is listed at one time staffs may have been available but notice the reference to special order and made to sample. Which basically tells us getting a balance staff would've been difficult

Well yes parts are hard to find and it's not just for vintage it's for everything. Parts Are typically only available if the company supplied parts not all companies supplied parts. If they're really popular parts conceivably they're all gone. Then yes there were some parts made by companies other than a factory but only if they were really popular. No point in making obscure parts that you're never going to sell. Which unfortunately affects all parts nobody wants to make modern parts to fit vintage watches if there is no market for those parts or not enough market to justify making those parts.

 

 

 

Yes. That makes sense. It's a size 18 and I guess there just aren't that many of them around so when one gets dropped/broken it will be impossible to repair. I'm find with it the way it is for now. It is still nice to look at and maybe someday I'll have the extra doh to have someone put it back into working order until someone drops it again.

 

 

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, FlameOfWrath said:

until someone drops it again.

That's the unfortunate problem of all mechanical watches that do not have systems in place to protect the balance jewel pivots.