Seiko 7009 Balance bridge issue

[NolaMike]

Hey all,

 

Have a bunch of old Seikos, and am trying to get some of them working. I had a non-working 7009 movement. Took it apart, cleaned it, put it back together. Still didn't run. Found a slightly bent shaft on one of the drivetrain wheels (proud of myself for finding it). Put it back together again. Before installing pallet bridge the drivetrain spun freely. Installed the balance bridge and started ticking. Yay. Went to tighten down the bridge and the watch stopped. If I back the screw out 1/2 turn it runs. If I back it out 2 turns it runs better (though still a bit low amplitude). Tried multiple balance wheels/bridges with same results. Figure something must be bent, but not sure what. I'm going to swap out the pallet fork and bridge next. Any other tips?

[RichardHarris123]

Sounds like an end shake issue. 

You could try shimming the balance cock. 

[JohnR725]

42 minutes ago, NolaMike said:

Installed the balance bridge and started ticking. Yay. Went to tighten down the bridge and the watch stopped. If I back the screw out 1/2 turn it runs. If I back it out 2 turns it runs better (though still a bit low amplitude). Tried multiple balance wheels/bridges with same results. Figure something must be bent, but not sure what. I'm going to swap out the pallet fork and bridge next. Any other tips?

Usually best in watch repair To slow it down and look at the problem. Rather than trying to swap your way out of a problem. Fortunately this is a modern watch or relatively modern where you can swap the parts. If you're doing anything vintage parts swapping would be very very bad just a note for the future.

Rather than swap out the pallet fork bridge why don't you just take it out and the pallet fork while you're at. Then put the balance wheel in all by itself and see how that works out. Also look to make sure the balance pivots are in the jewels. If you're not sure you take the jewels out so you can see the pivots. Then you can put the jewels in one of the time. The other thing you want to look at is the hairspring it's easy to bend and if it's touching the balance wheel that might be a problem right there.

 

 

[NolaMike]

9 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Sounds like an end shake issue. 

You could try shimming the balance cock. 

Yeah, but shouldn't need to do that.

 

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Usually best in watch repair To slow it down and look at the problem. Rather than trying to swap your way out of a problem. Fortunately this is a modern watch or relatively modern where you can swap the parts. If you're doing anything vintage parts swapping would be very very bad just a note for the future.

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Rather than swap out the pallet fork bridge why don't you just take it out and the pallet fork while you're at. Then put the balance wheel in all by itself and see how that works out.

That's a good thought, but what am I looking for? I guess if the balance is still a bit tight then I rule out the pallet fork/bridge? Might be tough to detect though, doesn't take much resistance to stop the balance.

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

 

Also look to make sure the balance pivots are in the jewels. If you're not sure you take the jewels out so you can see the pivots. Then you can put the jewels in one of the time. The other thing you want to look at is the hairspring it's easy to bend and if it's touching the balance wheel that might be a problem right there.

 

 

They definitely are, I probably removed/installed a dozen times. I don't think it would turn at all if I missed a pivot and screwed the bridge down almost all the way. This is where the parts swapping I think is a good idea. I tried 3 or 4 different bridges/balances, and all behaved the same way. The first one I had the diashock jewel out initially. I don't recall in what order I reinstalled it and tightened the screw. The other bridges I didn't remove the jewel, but none of springs looked bad. Thanks for the help!

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, NolaMike said:

That's a good thought, but what am I looking for? I guess if the balance is still a bit tight then I rule out the pallet fork/bridge? Might be tough to detect though, doesn't take much resistance to stop the balance.

One of the problems for helping you is your new? A lot of times people new to the discussion group someplace do an introduction like are you new to watch repair? Can I assume you're new to watch repair or can I assume that you have experience? Are these the first watches you've ever worked on or have you worked on other watches?

Then let's make an assumption you've never worked on a watch before almost. Sometimes I make a joke about the elephant in the room. Often times the elephant goes unnoticed in other words it's the problem but there's a failure to see the elephant people get obsessed with the little things in the room. Because they just don't see the problem. If you new to watch repair then the problem may be the elephant in the room that you just can't see. This is where sometimes a make a reference to people using microscopes they can see the dust on the pine needles in the forest but they can't see the forest fire that's producing the dust until it's too late.

5 hours ago, NolaMike said:

They definitely are, I probably removed/installed a dozen times. I don't think it would turn at all if I missed a pivot and screwed the bridge down almost all the way. This is where the parts swapping I think is a good idea. I tried 3 or 4 different bridges/balances, and all behaved the same way. The first one I had the diashock jewel out initially. I don't recall in what order I reinstalled it and tightened the screw. The other bridges I didn't remove the jewel, but none of springs looked bad.

So based on what I see quoted above every single watch does the exact same thing swapping all of the components around does the exact same thing and why exactly?

Now the other thing that happens when I help people usually when I ask is background history of the watch. Was it acquired running is it not running what your background history. But you now have a background history of how many watches? And they've all been mixed and matched fortunately at Seiko so that's probably okay. But it does become a bit peculiar that all of them are doing the exact same thing.

Looks like we've reached the end of our help unless you can acquire more movements but will that change anything? You have a watch that I know runs or should run don't know the background history of all of your watches. So let's start over again

15 hours ago, NolaMike said:

Still didn't run. Found a slightly bent shaft on one of the drivetrain wheels (proud of myself for finding it).

Unfortunately having taught watch repair to hobbyists I will jump to the wrong conclusion I apologize. In other words you found a bent pivot is what I assume you're saying and if you are a beginner I would ponder if you bent it? Because when you start off these things happen oh and pivots have a likelihood of sometimes falling off. Or I once remember the sound of the jewel cracking the pivot wasn't quite what was supposed to be when I screwed the bridge down yes you do remember the mistakes when you started.

When you assemble the gear train without the pallet fork you should Be able to wind the watch. Yes I know it doesn't have a regular stem you can turn the screw on the ratchet wheel. So gently turning the screw the gear train should take off.

Then the pallet fork to go in. We haven't talked about how your lubricating the watch? When the pallet fork is in and your lubricating that is a good time to check and see how things are functioning? As you didn't ask for lubrication tips I'm not going to go into that but basically are pushing the pallet fork back and forth with something in seeing that it seems to snap nicely and you have power through the pallet fork.

Then the balance wheel can go in. But?

15 hours ago, NolaMike said:

Before installing pallet bridge the drivetrain spun freely.

This is where I'm slightly out of sync with the answers I explained about your pallet fork up above. Also make sure the pallet fork looks flat in other words I might have mentioned how pivots falloff quite common on pallet forks and then it won't be Apsley straight the way it's supposed to be. Also look at the guard pin make sure that it didn't get bent and it's where it's supposed to be.

15 hours ago, NolaMike said:

Installed the balance bridge and started ticking. Yay. Went to tighten down the bridge and the watch stopped. If I back the screw out 1/2 turn it runs. If I back it out 2 turns it runs better (though still a bit low amplitude). Tried multiple balance wheels/bridges with same results.

Now we get to the problem?

5 hours ago, NolaMike said:

They definitely are, I probably removed/installed a dozen times. I don't think it would turn at all if I missed a pivot and screwed the bridge down almost all the way. This is where the parts swapping I think is a good idea. I tried 3 or 4 different bridges/balances, and all behaved the same way. The first one I had the diashock jewel out initially. I don't recall in what order I reinstalled it and tightened the screw. The other bridges I didn't remove the jewel, but none of springs looked bad.

If the balance wheel is where it's supposed to be in the jewels and I did check something. Some watches the upper and lower jewel assemblies can be different sizes but looks like Seiko they're all the same size. Typically the side that you can see not the dial side will have bigger jewels one they look nice impressive bigger but it's also to account for the regulating system. So the other side will have less pretty jewels smaller jewels etc. but it did look like on the tech sheet they're all the same size I assume you do have the tech sheet? If not one will appear for you.

So the balance wheel in all by itself should spin effortlessly if it doesn't then there's a problem there if it spins effortlessly then the next would be how it works with the pallet fork.

Normally you would never bend the balance pivots but occasionally they don't go quite where there supposed to be in they can get bent. As I also mentioned the hairspring can get bent that's actually extremely easy to bend. Strangely enough I did that earlier the week one slip with a screwdriver fortunately was an easy fix for me still annoying though.

So balance wheel all by itself? Let us start with that

oh and when you're mixing and matching did you swap balance wheels or the same balance wheel with all the different bridges and stuff?

 

[Nucejoe]

16 hours ago, NolaMike said:

Tried multiple balance wheels/bridges with same results. 

Lack of end shake on balance staff.

Check the jewel setting on mainplate.  

Normal causes,   flipped over  end stone, moved setting housing, crimped chaton, worn jewel hole and bent staff pivot.

Good luck pal

[NolaMike]

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

One of the problems for helping you is your new? A lot of times people new to the discussion group someplace do an introduction like are you new to watch repair? Can I assume you're new to watch repair or can I assume that you have experience? Are these the first watches you've ever worked on or have you worked on other watches?

Then let's make an assumption you've never worked on a watch before almost. Sometimes I make a joke about the elephant in the room. Often times the elephant goes unnoticed in other words it's the problem but there's a failure to see the elephant people get obsessed with the little things in the room. Because they just don't see the problem. If you new to watch repair then the problem may be the elephant in the room that you just can't see. This is where sometimes a make a reference to people using microscopes they can see the dust on the pine needles in the forest but they can't see the forest fire that's producing the dust until it's too late.

So based on what I see quoted above every single watch does the exact same thing swapping all of the components around does the exact same thing and why exactly?

Now the other thing that happens when I help people usually when I ask is background history of the watch. Was it acquired running is it not running what your background history. But you now have a background history of how many watches? And they've all been mixed and matched fortunately at Seiko so that's probably okay. But it does become a bit peculiar that all of them are doing the exact same thing.

Looks like we've reached the end of our help unless you can acquire more movements but will that change anything? You have a watch that I know runs or should run don't know the background history of all of your watches. So let's start over again

Unfortunately having taught watch repair to hobbyists I will jump to the wrong conclusion I apologize. In other words you found a bent pivot is what I assume you're saying and if you are a beginner I would ponder if you bent it? Because when you start off these things happen oh and pivots have a likelihood of sometimes falling off. Or I once remember the sound of the jewel cracking the pivot wasn't quite what was supposed to be when I screwed the bridge down yes you do remember the mistakes when you started.

When you assemble the gear train without the pallet fork you should Be able to wind the watch. Yes I know it doesn't have a regular stem you can turn the screw on the ratchet wheel. So gently turning the screw the gear train should take off.

Then the pallet fork to go in. We haven't talked about how your lubricating the watch? When the pallet fork is in and your lubricating that is a good time to check and see how things are functioning? As you didn't ask for lubrication tips I'm not going to go into that but basically are pushing the pallet fork back and forth with something in seeing that it seems to snap nicely and you have power through the pallet fork.

Then the balance wheel can go in. But?

This is where I'm slightly out of sync with the answers I explained about your pallet fork up above. Also make sure the pallet fork looks flat in other words I might have mentioned how pivots falloff quite common on pallet forks and then it won't be Apsley straight the way it's supposed to be. Also look at the guard pin make sure that it didn't get bent and it's where it's supposed to be.

Now we get to the problem?

If the balance wheel is where it's supposed to be in the jewels and I did check something. Some watches the upper and lower jewel assemblies can be different sizes but looks like Seiko they're all the same size. Typically the side that you can see not the dial side will have bigger jewels one they look nice impressive bigger but it's also to account for the regulating system. So the other side will have less pretty jewels smaller jewels etc. but it did look like on the tech sheet they're all the same size I assume you do have the tech sheet? If not one will appear for you.

So the balance wheel in all by itself should spin effortlessly if it doesn't then there's a problem there if it spins effortlessly then the next would be how it works with the pallet fork.

Normally you would never bend the balance pivots but occasionally they don't go quite where there supposed to be in they can get bent. As I also mentioned the hairspring can get bent that's actually extremely easy to bend. Strangely enough I did that earlier the week one slip with a screwdriver fortunately was an easy fix for me still annoying though.

So balance wheel all by itself? Let us start with that

oh and when you're mixing and matching did you swap balance wheels or the same balance wheel with all the different bridges and stuff?

 

Thanks for the detailed reply, let me see if I can answer your questions.

1. I do have an intro post. I've been dabbling for about 15 years, but haven't rebuilt a movement in a few years, so definitely have forgotten a lot. I've stripped and rebuilt probably 2 dozen movements over the years. Not a total newbie, but certainly squarely amateur status.

2. For this project I'm using the same movement. I stripped/cleaned/reassembled it. It was a complete unknown that I got in a box of parts, but it was complete. Didn't run at all. The parts that I swapped were several balances/bridges (complete) and 1 pallet/bridge onto this base movement. I got the same behavior regardless of bridge/balance or pallet/bridge.

3. Yes, as I mentioned, gear train spins quickly with a minimal turn of the barrel. It overspins and then will run back and forth until the spring is totally still.  Usually this indicates to me that there's no significant friction in the drivetrain.

4. Pallet fork when installed snaps back and forth.

5. It wasn't the pivot that was bent, it was the whole shaft on the gear. Quite sure it wasn't me, and was why (at least one reason) why the gear train was initially so hard to turn.

6. Yes, I have the tech sheet. As far as I can tell, most if not all of the diashock assemblies are the same on both sides and across multiple movements.

7. Balance installed without pallet fork spins effortlessly. Tried with a couple of complete balance/bridges, same result. Since this is with multiple assemblies, I assume any problem with bent pivots is ruled out by this. Same with bent hairspring.

 

I think that covers most of it?

 

7 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Lack of end shake on balance staff.

Check the jewel setting on mainplate.  

Normal causes,   flipped over  end stone, moved setting housing, crimped chaton, worn jewel hole and bent staff pivot.

Good luck pal

I think you're on to something! I figured that when I installed the balance by itself and it turned freely that that ruled out the endshake issue, at least with the jewels. Using different balances/bridges at least makes the balance bridge jewel less likely. However, I (grudgingly) stripped the backside again, removed the jewel cup, and reinstalled balance without the jewel and cup. And it worked (though it wasn't excited about it). I was able to screw the bridge down tightly though, and it still ran. Moreover, it seemed to run pretty well when flipped over and the whole balance was resting on the balance bridge pivot. So now to figure out the problem. The end cap I don't think has directionality. I don't have the magnification with me to get a good look at the cup and jewel. I'm not sure if the chaton is the cup the jewel rides in, or the part on the plate that the whole assembly sits in. Everything on my gross inspection looks ok. If the jewel hole were worn, it shouldn't run any worse than with no jewel there at all I would think. Bent staff pivot unlikely, as mentioned with multiple balances tried. At this point, I'm wondering if the jewel/cup was somehow installed tilted, with the hole axis not quite parallel to the pivot. I haven't had that happen before, and would think that when I installed the end jewel and spring that would straighten it out, but maybe not? Anyway, it's back in the cleaner bath atm until I have some time to reassemble. This is a lot of time for a $40 movement LOL. Thanks for the help!

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, NolaMike said:

It overspins and then will run back and forth until the spring is totally still.  Usually this indicates to me that there's no significant friction in the drivetrain.

I was going to mention that but it's hard to explain what backspin is to people if they don't understand.

1 hour ago, NolaMike said:

Balance installed without pallet fork spins effortlessly. Tried with a couple of complete balance/bridges, same result. Since this is with multiple assemblies, I assume any problem with bent pivots is ruled out by this. Same with bent hairspring.

Interesting

1 hour ago, NolaMike said:

I got the same behavior regardless of bridge/balance or pallet/bridge.

This one is still the same problem. This is come up before you won't like it. Because what I'm reading it shouldn't be occurring but yet it is occurring. What is come up in the past was the common factor in other words you have a whole bunch of watches doing the exact same thing you've done enough mixing and matching that should be impossible to have which are having unless there's some common defect in that watch that would affect all of them which is not impossible but just unlikely. She does nothing common in this whole thing everything would be random except you. Yes this is come up in the past with somebody was wondering what was he doing wrong that.

Now sometimes what happens is if we make the assumption of newbies in particular with no experience would be how they clean the watch how they lubricate the watch how much lubrication or maybe some certain basic thing that's why make a joke about the elephant in the room there so you to find the dust under the carpet as the reason for their not go to look for elephants in the room or anything else.

So geartrain spins pallet fork works balance wheel spins. Then the only problem that could be is the coupling of the pallet fork to the balance wheel. Although and I guess I think you were going to I can't remember,,,, the commas are there because I stopped in and thinking about this so everything works on one side everything works on the other side than the coupling in between can be the issue or and I seen this once at work where somebody was having interesting problem they didn't have the right screw on their path that fork bridge to a certain position the balance wheel would hit the tiny screw but another position at work just fine. Oh you should try that if the watch doesn't work dial down does it work dial up? I suppose you could still be rubbing somehow on the pallet fork bridge

In case you're curious what I'm doing is reading down so when we get to the last part about the jewels conceivably everything up above may change. Sometimes I tell people might be better to read my replies backwards because at the end we might have the solution. Let me go look for something?

This might help most of the watch companies have supplemental information in addition to the tech sheets. A lot of times the supplemental information doesn't get scanned so nobody's ever seen it.  So this should help with what @Nucejoe is pointing out which by the way is why I gave him a thumbs up Because we kind of operators a team here can't remember everything.

I think with the picture it becomes obvious to see what happens if you do not realize the end stone has a side to it. So flipping upside down would decrease your end shake doing it on both pivots would cause a dramatic decrease. As you doing a random mixing and matching conceivably as you wouldn't tell the difference of which side is which we can end up with a interesting mix of probabilities of which side will end up.

One of the ways that you can tell which side is which depends upon the type of bench light you have or overhead lighting. Typically where I've ever worked I have a florescent bench light which is a long lid up tube of light. Now the reason for pointing that out is if you look at the reflection in the jewel is it a curved reflection or is it flat. That's another way to tell which side is up without lots of magnification.

[NolaMike]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

I think with the picture it becomes obvious to see what happens if you do not realize the end stone has a side to it. So flipping upside down would decrease your end shake doing it on both pivots would cause a dramatic decrease. As you doing a random mixing and matching conceivably as you wouldn't tell the difference of which side is which we can end up with a interesting mix of probabilities of which side will end up.

One of the ways that you can tell which side is which depends upon the type of bench light you have or overhead lighting. Typically where I've ever worked I have a florescent bench light which is a long lid up tube of light. Now the reason for pointing that out is if you look at the reflection in the jewel is it a curved reflection or is it flat. That's another way to tell which side is up without lots of magnification.

I think that might be it. I have that diagram but didn't pay attention enough to it I guess. As to your question about dial position, it didn't seem to make much difference. Lower than normal amplitude, but just completely stops with the last 1/4 or 1/2 turn of the screw. (And I actually already tried using a shorter screw to see if that did anything). Thanks for the tip on the lighting--I couldn't tell that one side was curved just looking at it. When I have the light reflect on it, I can tell one side is flat. I'll assemble soon and update.

[Nucejoe]

 

2 hours ago, NolaMike said:

I'm not sure if the chaton is the cup the jewel rides in, or the part on the plate that the whole assembly sits in. 

Who knows ,  I like this diagram amongst many conflictings ones.

https://www.great-british-watch.co.uk/watch-anti-shock-settings/

In case a jewel is moved roller table might rub on the fork. 

Rgds

 

[JohnR725]

17 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

In case a jewel is moved roller table might rub on the fork.

You might also want to check your roller jewel depending upon the cleaning fluids they occasionally get loose. More common on vintage watches but because you're having an issue you want to look at that also.

Here is an image from a Seiko 7005 it's out of their lubrication guide. It should be similar to what you have a give you an idea of the clearances of things have. This is where it be nice to have x-ray vision to Be able to look inside and see the watch like this.

[NolaMike]

That was it! So that diagram was confusing. I thought it showed the flat side of the cap facing the spring (which seemed odd). I installed it that way, same problem. Decided to flip it around, curved side up, and it works!

Great learning experience, thanks for the help.

The balance that I have in there now I didn't remove the jewel on, but working anyway. I think I'm going to clean and swap in an older one, and use this one as a known working spare.

The watch still isn't going to be pretty even when done (the lume on the hands is a mess, and the dial is scratched), but I like it and am going to put it together. I'll post a pic when I'm done.