19j Hampden Model 5 won't run

[daehimeh]

Hello Everyone,

I am restoring a Hampden Model 5 Railway that belonged to a close friend's grandfather. Upon installing the balance, the watch won't run at all. Based on my investigation I think there may be an issue with the escape wheel. With a small amount of power in the new mainspring, I test the train by gently touching the pallet fork and most of the time it jumps like it should, every once in a while it bounces only about half way then returns to the same side. This is preventing it from properly engaging the balance and the watch won't run. I've counted the number of times between "failures" and it is seemingly random, I thought that may indicate a specific tooth of the escape wheel being bad, but in that case I believe the failure would be more consistent, happening every time the broken tooth was engaged. 

Any tips would be greatly appreciated. This 19j Railway version of the Model 5 is pretty rare so I have struggled to find resources and parts for it.

[clockboy]

Welcome to the forum, enjoy

[mikepilk]

Have you checked for lose pallet jewels?

Can you provide pics of the pallet in both positions ?

[JohnR725]

13 hours ago, daehimeh said:

This 19j Railway version of the Model 5 is pretty rare

it would be nice to have a picture of the movement.

13 hours ago, daehimeh said:

I am restoring a Hampden Model 5 Railway that belonged to a close friend's grandfather.

as this is your first post on the group and restoring your friends grandfather watch can we assume you have experience with watches?

13 hours ago, daehimeh said:

Based on my investigation I think there may be an issue with the escape wheel.

because I wasn't sure if we were dealing with 18 size or 16 size watch I found the picture so I would know what were dealing with.

If you remove the balance and pallet fork how does the train spin?

13 hours ago, daehimeh said:

I test the train by gently touching the pallet fork and most of the time it jumps like it should, every once in a while it bounces only about half way then returns to the same side. This is preventing it from properly engaging the balance and the watch won't run.

one of the problems when you push on the pallet fork is is not the same as when the balance wheel does it. Now as you gently push on the fork and it gently moves across sometimes it will land on the impulse face and go back to where it came from whereas with the balance wheel is usually moving really fast and it's not an issue. Sometimes you get things right yet the pallet fork all by itself the balance back and forth depending on the impulse planes because that's an artificial situation.

so basically there's probably nothing wrong with the escape wheel. Does the watch Ron at all? Then because the age the watch has somebody played with the banking pins are they where there supposed to be?

It would also help to have a background history of the watch was running before you got its when was the last serviced and did you change the mainspring?

 

[daehimeh]

A video I took of the "skip" the escapement is doing. I'm beginning to think it may be a banking pin in the wrong position, bot letting it engage with the escape wheel correctly. 

 

Background on me: I have been restoring pocket watches and building my own custom watches for a few years. In that time this was my first Hampden restoration. 

Background on the watch: It has been in a drawer for at least 30 years. When I got it it was not running. A broken pivot on the balance staff and a VERY weak main spring were the first, most obvious issues. Based on scarring and shortcuts taken during past services it was definitely serviced, just apparently very sloppily. The main plate is scratched very severely and intentionally under the balance cock, i am assuming a past servicer's attempt to correct a timing issue. 

What I've done: I disassembled the movement, ran it through the L&R, and began a trial assembly. I wanted to make sure the new balance was the right fit and everything would work. The gear train spins flawlessly with the pallet fork removed. With the pallet fork and balance installed it runs for one or two cycles of the balance then stops. I am assuming that stop is due to the "skipping" that can be seen in the video. 

[JohnR725]

On 5/26/2023 at 11:44 AM, daehimeh said:

Background on me: I have been restoring pocket watches and building my own custom watches for a few years. In that time this was my first Hampden restoration.

This is helpful because returning the discussion seeing the number three for the number of posts you had pondering what's really then going on with the watch but you have experience so that's going to help.

On 5/26/2023 at 11:44 AM, daehimeh said:

I'm beginning to think it may be a banking pin in the wrong position, bot letting it engage with the escape wheel correctly. 

The problem with movable banking pins are over time they've been moved possibly. The problem is there supposed to be in a very exacting location for a very exacting purpose. Specifically there are there for Horn clearance only. Unfortunately moving them will have consequences of all sorts of things like what you're describing.

On 5/26/2023 at 11:44 AM, daehimeh said:

The main plate is scratched very severely and intentionally under the balance cock, i am assuming a past servicer's attempt to correct a timing issue. 

Things done under the balance bridge are usually done for end shake reasons.For instance so take a graver and cut in the raise up spots of metal to change the end shake. Then it might look scratched up because people like me usually go through and scrape all that crap off and fix the problem properly.

A quick test to see if there might be issues it's not really an appropriate test it's more of a let's see if someone screwed up your banking pins. Notice the two images the pallet fork should be in the identical position on either banking pins. So if you site down on anything in relationship to the jewel for instance both should be identical. It looks to me like yours are not.

Have you ever done banking pin adjustments before? Then unfortunately because are movable they should be moved just because that's what the prior watchmakers thought because it had no idea why there movable.