Mainspring for Luch 2209 movement

[kd8tzc]

I just started to take apart and service a Luch 2209 last night.  This thing is dripping with dirt and oil.  One thing I would like to find, in order to not mess with mainspring winders is just finding a new mainspring that I can drop in right from the holder that it comes in.  How would i find out if there is an alternative mainspring that would fit this?  Do I need measurements (and I'm sure John R will ask for pictures... I will get some), but what else?

Thank you for your help.

[RichardHarris123]

This should help, you also need to know the bridle type. 

Just now, RichardHarris123 said:

This should help, you also need to know the bridle type. 

It doesn't give the length but you can measure that. 

[kd8tzc]

so the 1.15 x 9 x .10mm is what I need?

How do I figure out the bridle type?  Send you all a picture and you school me?

[RichardHarris123]

Remove the mainspring and I'll tell you the type. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

39 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

so the 1.15 x 9 x .10mm is what I need?

How do I figure out the bridle type?  Send you all a picture and you school me?

Measurements of the spring are a starting point. We cant always rely on this though , not always the correct replaced springs get installed. Some Russian brands used the same calibres.  Luch 2209 is probably a Poljot,  raketa also made a 2209, but looking at the GR catalogue is a different sized  movement?  Good places to check your mainspring sizes are the Generale ressorts catalogues you can download this also the Bestfit catalogue also download for a small fee, watchguy mainspring lists. Good way of learning what to look for. Look at the barrel and lid this will give you a clue to the mainspring bridle type.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[kd8tzc]

Okay, since I am still learning, the bridle is the part that is outer most (last three pictures)?  Meaning it is not the part that attaches the arbor but where that little piece is welded that will contact the outside of the barrel?

[RichardHarris123]

Yes, the part that touches the barrel wall.  I think yours is  a double bracelet, DB in the attached photo or DBH if that's a hole in the end of the spring, I can't quite make it out. 

Just now, RichardHarris123 said:

Yes, the part that touches the barrel wall.  I think yours is  a double bracelet, DB in the attached photo or DBH if that's a hole in the end of the spring, I can't quite make it out. 

What does the barrel look like where the spring attaches?  

[kd8tzc]

There is not a hole in the bridle... looks like a weld spot.

The barrel and the lid to it have a small notch that I believe those two tabs (ears) stick out.

[RichardHarris123]

I think you're correct. 

[mikepilk]

Ranfft says its the same as a Poljot- 1.15 x 0.10 x 9 (no length specified), yet Cousins lists 1.20 x 0.11 x 240 x 8.5 DB (GR2946DB). - which is what is listed in the GR database. In these cases, I find Cousins/GR are have been more accurate than Ranfft.

The spring should push straight in , but you have to make sure you get the tab on the end in the slot in the barrel - these can be tricky !

Edited April 22, 2023 by mikepilk

[kd8tzc]

Is there anyone in the USA who may carry these?  I'm not having good luck with Cousins and shipping, yet they have a very nice search database.

@mikepilk, what is the GR database and how can I find it?

[RichardHarris123]

Look in the resource section and select your county. 

[mikepilk]

11 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

Is there anyone in the USA who may carry these?  I'm not having good luck with Cousins and shipping, yet they have a very nice search database.

@mikepilk, what is the GR database and how can I find it?

Sorry, didn't realise you are in the US.  Have a look here for parts suppliers https://www.watchfix.com/2019/11/08/watch-parts-tools-suppliers/

and order using the GR number.

If you search for "GR mainsprings" in the Cousins documents https://www.cousinsuk.com/document  you can download all parts of the GR database. I found it easier to download "GR Mainsprings by Calibre pages - to -"

Edited April 22, 2023 by mikepilk

[kd8tzc]

Thanks... if I wanted to practice winding with the old mainspring, is this a right hand or left hand mainspring?  Not sure I want to spend the $$ on winders, but just good to  know.  I believe this is a right hand due to where the tip of the mainsppring is (where the hole is for the arbor) but looking to confirm that.

How would I clean the old mainspring?  Just wipe it down?  It's too large unsprung to fit in a cleaning jar.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, mikepilk said:

The spring should push straight in , but you have to make sure you get the tab on the end in the slot in the barrel - these can be tricky !

as Mike says kd these can be a pain, do your best to locate the tab on the mainspring in one shot. If you miss they can be difficult to slide around to the slot once the spring has unwound in the  barrel. If that happens you might need to release the tension by attaching a pinvice to arbor and then winding up ( a risky manoeuvre ). This is one reason that i hand wind these so i can drop the tab in to the slot as i begin winding in.

2 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

what is the GR database and how can I find it?

Generale Ressorts mainspring catalogue.  Search watchguy technical manuals,  he has loads of good pdf files for you to download

17 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

How would I clean the old mainspring?  Just wipe it down?  It's too large unsprung to fit in a cleaning jar.

I use a small piece of chamois dipped in ipa  folded between tweezers and pull the spring through it. You can also use watchpaper but i find a bit of soft leather works better.

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

not mess with mainspring winders is just finding a new mainspring that I can drop in right from the holder that it comes in.

yes this is a very nice fantasy unfortunately this is watch repair. With the normal arrival you can just push them out or an automatic watch they will push out but anything that has a special end that goes into either the barrel the land or both cannot be just pushed out typically unless you're extremely lucky it just won't happen this either means mainspring winder or you can wind it in by hand. If you using the mainspring winder what she would do it should wind up almost all the way into the winder you leave a little bit out. Then you stick all of that in the barrel rotates until you where you're supposed to be pushed the part that goes in the barrel into the barrel so it's in place and then the key to all of this is you have to hold it in place. In other words you have to press down on that part that sticking up either with your largest screwdriver or the back your tweezers. Then when you push the spring out because you're holding it in place it will stay in place. Otherwise it has a habit of jumping out of place and trying to rotated after the fact typically doesn't work. Or you can try to hand wind it in.

The easy way to figure out what you're doing is to drop the arbor in without the lead and look at it and see how it's going to pull the mainspring that will tell you the direction the mainspring has to go in.

3 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

How would I clean the old mainspring?  Just wipe it down?  It's too large unsprung to fit in a cleaning jar.

it depends on which reference material you look at and whether it's a blued steel spring or the modern spring. If we go by Omega's recommendation for a modern spring you wipe it with a lint free cloth no solvents. If you look at package is a modern mainsprings they will tell you that it either has pre-lubrication or it doesn't need lubrication which is why Omega recommends just wiping ads. So I've seen references to not to use solvents. But the blued steel Springs are before whatever the magical lubrication is so it's really dirty you'll have to wipe up with a solvent. But it's a blued steel spring be very careful not to touch it with your hands as the whatever we have in our hands can cause micro fractures and the spring will shatter.

6 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Ranfft says its the same as a Poljot- 1.15 x 0.10 x 9 (no length specified), yet Cousins lists 1.20 x 0.11 x 240 x 8.5 DB (GR2946DB)

a lot of times what you'll see in mainspring is fractional sizes are either rounded up or rounded down. So like 1.15 could become 1.20 or 1.10. Then unfortunately with time as there seems to be less and less mainspring is you'll see other dimensional changes for the other thing is in other words they don't have the infinite quantity of mainsprings they once had so they will just substitute whatever is suitable or hopefully what is suitable I find this quite common when I get to try to get pocket watch springs

 

oh and I found an interesting link for you

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/22126-birthday-gift-for-a-friend-luch-2209/

 

 

[kd8tzc]

So if the inside diameter of the mainspring barrel is 8.97mm, if I just wish to order one wider, would I order the Bergeon #5 (8.6mm) winder?

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

So if the inside diameter of the mainspring barrel is 8.97mm, if I just wish to order one wider, would I order the Bergeon #5 (8.6mm) winder?

problem is you have to leave a little bit of the mainspring stuck out and get that into the slot and usually the T parts has been riveted to the normal mainspring this means that a easily could be twice as thick as the regular Spring plus the rivets we have to have room for that to get all of that in the barrel.

 

 

[kd8tzc]

Sorry, I noticed a typo in my post from previous... it should say "if I just wish to order one winder, would I...."  

@JohnR725, I hear what you are saying, but I don't think it's possible to use a larger winder.  Also, if the dimensions are 1.15 x .10 x 260 x 8 for a Cousins GR2803, that would be smaller (I would think due to the last number which is I would hope it would work with the 8.6mm winder.  It's either that and get a set of those cheap chinese winders and pray for the best, but I would rather spend the same money for one good winder if I could.

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

@JohnR725, I hear what you are saying, but I don't think it's possible to use a larger winder.  Also, if the dimensions are 1.15 x .10 x 260 x 8 for a Cousins GR2803, that would be smaller (I would think due to the last number which is I would hope it would work with the 8.6mm winder.  It's either that and get a set of those cheap chinese winders and pray for the best, but I would rather spend the same money for one good winder if I could.

I have a minor confusion I wonder if something came up backwards from what I was saying? So if your barrel diameter inside is 8.97 mm obviously your winder has to be smaller than that. If a little bit of the mainspring is stuck out to get the T part into the slot then you have to accommodate the part that sticking out which as I pointed out could be at least twice as thick as the spring. So that has to be accommodated which means your winder has to have interesting properties of being big enough to hold the entire mainspring but also be small enough to hold the mainspring and the little bit that sticking out and get all of that into the barrel.

oh and yes there is a tiny possibility that it can be pushed out of the ring. Normally the ring is in the middle of the mainsprings so if you can relocate the ring so it's on the edge of the mainspring. Then managed to get the T part into the slot and hold it there and then finish pushing out the mainspring I've heard of people he could get it to work. But anytime you're playing with a mainspring you should be wearing eye protection they keep from poking your eye out.

[Neverenoughwatches]

14 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Normally the ring is in the middle of the mainsprings so if you can relocate the ring so it's on the edge of the mainspring. Then managed to get the T part into the slot and hold it there and then finish pushing out the mainspring I've heard of people he could get it to work.

Yes like john says a small possibility that the t end will drop in if you are lucky KD. There is a fix if you miss albeit a bit risky. I was unlucky and missed after i decided to test a new adjustable winder i bought  a few months ago. I wasn't  happy about taking it out and cleaning again,so my solution was to wind it up inside the barrel using a pin vice. Just enough to reduce the friction on the barrel wall to slide the t around and into the barrel slot. I say just enough as it was preparing to leap out at me. 

[kd8tzc]

Okay, thanks to the both of you.  @JohnR725, what do you mean by the "ring in the middle of the mainspring"?

@Neverenoughwatcheswhen you say wind it with a pin vise, do you mean you seat the whole mainspring, put the arbor back in, and seat the arbor in the pin vise and wind that way?

[JohnR725]

11 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

what do you mean by the "ring in the middle of the mainspring"?

problems with communications I guess

14 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Normally the ring is in the middle of the mainsprings

by the way I use dictation software depending upon how well I pronounce things my mental state and whether my dictation software likes me or not things that sometimes get lost in the translation perhaps

so how about a picture less words. That is a mainspring new in its ring. Typically but not always tell colorcode one side in this case is read the other side is silver so you would put this on top your barrel and usually with your thumb or perhaps the backside of the tweezers you push the mainspring out of the ring into the barrel providing it's like this one on normal and.

The problem as we stated before is that if it has anything that protrudes or basically a T type spring. That has to go into whatever sort of all is in the barrel sometimes if you're careful you can push the entire mainspring so it's flat but still in the ring and if you're lucky the protruding part six down far enough that you rotated until it falls into its slot or hole because sometimes tease or not slots like yours they're actually more rounded in other words I go into a round hole rather than the slot. But whatever you place that over the whole get it close enough that when you push it out it might stay in place where it may just barely be in place and then stay in place

if it's not in place that's where the fun begins usually a lot of very bad language may be used. You can take screwdriver will work in push really hard on TV part try not the slip and gouge your fingers but it doesn't like to rotate typically you might Miller rotated a little bit may be not very far

the problem is there's too much pressure on the mainspring as it's unwound maybe there's a way to fixing the problem?

19 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

wind it with a pin vise

so yes how to wind your mainspring with the  Arbor but you can't put the lid on yet because it won't fit. So you grab whichever end is convenient probably the other end a you can attempt to wind the spring when enough tension is off it will rotate the trick would be to get it to rotate where it's supposed to be. I suppose if you are really clever you can partially wind it take off a lot of the pressure and then with a screwdriver push the T part to where it's supposed to be in push it in place but that's going to require more hands than you have so that's out. I think a better way to do this then using a pin vice would be to use a watchmaker's lathe because with the collet you could hold the other side of the arbor very securely and it wouldn't accidentally pop out because you're holding it very securely in the life but you still can have the mainspring get away from you and conceivably it can do damage like poke out and I wear eye protection

oh and celebrate not working on o'clock. When people are doing clocks they have to put on very very heavy gloves where very dedicated face protection and hope the whole thing doesn't get away from them because clock springs can be really nasty powerful things. I actually know some people turn certain clocks down just because I don't want to deal with how powerful the mainspring could be as a just don't have anything that could withstand getting that out of the barrel or even working with it. So watch is a relatively minor but still in the spring gets away had a good thing worst case you could lose your eyesight. Or the barrel can go flying away possibly the arbor might go flying with it and know they will not fly to the same place

so hopefully that explains if you're lucky you might be able to get the spring out of the ring into the barrel where it's supposed to be and everything will be fine. But it be better if you use the mainspring winder which even that itself will have issues or can have issues oh I suppose yes you get a mainspring winder it can fit the size of the barrel taken hold the spring just like the ring below is doing. But what makes you think the handle arbor  is going to fit your spring

[Neverenoughwatches]

46 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

Neverenoughwatcheswhen you say wind it with a pin vise, do you mean you seat the whole mainspring, put the arbor back in, and seat the arbor in the pin vise and wind that way?

Yes this was only after i had missed getting the t shape of the bridle in and not how i would normally hand wind a mainspring into the barrel. Place the arbor into the barrel and hook on to the mainspring. Attached a pin vice to the arbor and carefully and slowly wind up just enough until the spring slipped around into place. As i metioned it was risky manoeuvre but what can i say I'm something of a daredevil, you should see me wing walking a biplane

[alx2021]

For the record. I have couple Luch with 2209 movement I was working on. I've used new GR2946DB mainsprings from Cousins and couldn't reach any amplitude over 240 with them. Instead I've tried GR2918DB (same height) and it kicks healthy 300+.

Here is a pic of a new GR2946DB. Looks weak to me. I guess I'll be checking new mainsprings for older movements from now on.

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by alx2021