Broken Pallet Pivot

[gpraceman]

While I am waiting for a part for my first project (a new Seagull ST3600 that I broke the stem by fumbling the movement onto the workbench), I decided to take apart a vintage watch that I got off of eBay for cheap.  It is a Mido 816 (AS 1081) and the only non-runner of the group.  I was able to confirm that the upper pivot on the pallet fork is broken.  I found a parts list showing the pallet fork and pallet staff as two separate parts.  As I'm a newb, I'm not so sure that I want to tackle installing a new staff on a pallet fork, even if I had the proper tool.  So, I need to find a complete pallet fork to swap in.  Do I just have to find a donor movement or can I find a complete pallet fork somewhere?

2963_Mido 816.pdf

[ScrewDropper]

It’s all part of the learning curve

The best bet would be to find a donor if you really want to fix it. That movement is pretty common for a watch of that age so finding parts won’t be imposIble. If I was you though, I would chalk this down to experience, reassemble what you have taken apart so far (you can always clean it first), put it in a container and label it and then keep it for spares. One day you’ll come across another watch with a broken balance or missing a part and you’ll have the spares right there.  

Keeping the watch assembled helps preserver the parts. don’t be tempted to have boxes for springs / wheels/ forks / balances etc because a) they will get damaged and b) you’ll never find what you’re looking for. 

[gpraceman]

3 minutes ago, ScrewDropper said:

It’s all part of the learning curve

The best bet would be to find a donor if you really want to fix it. That movement is pretty common for a watch of that age so finding parts won’t be imposIble. If I was you though, I would chalk this down to experience, reassemble what you have taken apart so far (you can always clean it first), put it in a container and label it and then keep it for spares. One day you’ll come across another watch with a broken balance or missing a part and you’ll have the spares right there.  

Keeping the watch assembled helps preserver the parts. don’t be tempted to have boxes for springs / wheels/ forks / balances etc because a) they will get damaged and b) you’ll never find what you’re looking for. 

Definitely a learning curve.  But sourcing parts is also about that.  If I can get the watch up and running, that would be a boost to my confidence (I like fixing broken things).  I can find the pallet staff alone, but not yet a complete pallet fork with staff.

[Nucejoe]

 Fork arbour replacement is still a useful skil to acquire, you are likely to be creating a new problem for yourself if you simply replace the fork complete, as the new pallats may need adjustment ( a harder task than fitting a new fork arbour). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, gpraceman said:

I can find the pallet staff alone, but not yet a complete pallet fork with staff.

Problem is to properly replace the arbor requires tools.

You didn't say which version of 816 you have is two separate versions. Don't think it's a matter though for the pallet fork. What makes the website interesting is you can click on the part that you desire no give the a list of all the other watches using the exact same. It give you more things to look for to find a movement To get the pallet fork from and more likely you'll probably need other parts.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=MID_916

 

 

[ScrewDropper]

3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 Fork arbour replacement is still a useful skil to acquire, you are likely to be creating a new problem for yourself if you simply replace the fork complete, as the new pallats may need adjustment ( a harder task than fitting a new fork arbour). 

This is a very good point. As long as you have a decent staking set, replacing an arbour is easier than resetting pallet jewels

 

 

 

 

[gpraceman]

7 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 Fork arbour replacement is still a useful skil to acquire, you are likely to be creating a new problem for yourself if you simply replace the fork complete, as the new pallats may need adjustment ( a harder task than fitting a new fork arbour). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting point.  I guess that I was expecting a drop in replacement.  Maybe that is only possible by finding an identical movement?

5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Problem is to properly replace the arbor requires tools.

You didn't say which version of 816 you have is two separate versions. Don't think it's a matter though for the pallet fork. What makes the website interesting is you can click on the part that you desire no give the a list of all the other watches using the exact same. It give you more things to look for to find a movement To get the pallet fork from and more likely you'll probably need other parts.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=MID_916

 

 

Didn't know there was different versions of the Mido 816.  The only other marking is on the bottom of the main plate, which is "1169/"

I found a similar movement listing at https://www.emmywatch.com/db/part/pallet_arbor_40-90-10_s_s--72s_81p/

3 hours ago, ScrewDropper said:

7 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

This is a very good point. As long as you have a decent staking set, replacing an arbour is easier than resetting pallet jewels

 

 

 

 

I may do as you suggested earlier.  Clean it, put it back together as is, and then hang onto it until I either feel ready to tackle an arbor replacement or need to scavenge it for parts.

Wouldn't I need a staking set with micrometer to replace that arbor?  The staking sets that I have seen don't have a micrometer.

Edited March 14, 2023 by gpraceman

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, gpraceman said:

 

Wouldn't I need a staking set with micrometer to replace that arbor? 

Usually it would be preferred to have a jeweling tool with the special accessory for doing this. I'm attaching an image off the PDF that I'm also attaching.

5009 5010 jeweling tools.pdf

[gpraceman]

9 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Usually it would be preferred to have a jeweling tool with the special accessory for doing this. I'm attaching an image off the PDF that I'm also attaching.

5009 5010 jeweling tools.pdf 1.92 MB · 0 downloads

Thanks for that.  Makes sense.  I assume that you setup off of the shoulder of the old arbor, to get the new arbor in the proper position.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, gpraceman said:

Interesting point.  I guess that I was expecting a drop in replacement.  Maybe that is only possible by finding an identical movement?

Typically on new or watches mass-produced watches it's less of an issue. If you're dealing with vintage watches American pocket watches for instance it's definitely can be an issue. But it's well worth trying to get a new pallet fork or used pallet fork and trying and seeing what happens you might be pleasantly surprised to find it works just fine.

2 minutes ago, gpraceman said:

I assume that you setup off of the shoulder of the old arbor, to get the new arbor in the proper position

The tool you want for this is found in the image below also found that the link. Notice the really expensive but do a search on the group there's a Chinese version which is much cheaper so all you have to do is buy the individual pushers.

Then because it's basically a micrometer head you could look at where it currently is push it out and then when you push the new one and just make sure you put it in the same place again. But ideally it be preferred to learn how to center the pallet fork with the escapement.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/search?searchTerm=horia

 

[Nucejoe]

20 hours ago, gpraceman said:

I  may do as you suggested earlier.  Clean it, put it back together as is, and then hang onto it until I either feel ready to tackle an arbor replacement or need to scavenge it for parts.

JohnR explained good portion of details.

Your old watch will run with the new fork complete, but probably with less than sastifactory amplitude. Same watch, when new,   would have produced bigger amplitude with the same new fork. 

In  used watches low amplitude can be due to heavy lock ( of pallet on escape tooth) in such cases reducing the lock will increase amplitude.

See relevent discussions on WRT forum. 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Nucejoe