Some Basic Balance Installation Questions

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, Macavity said:

Thanks again for the input, everyone. After last night, I'm wondering if my issue might actually be the pallet fork. After reinstalling it and winding the watch, I still get clean, solid left to right movements as the pallet fork moves along the escape wheel, but I'm noticing a lot of up and down wobble in the fork as well. From my understanding, that's not supposed to be there, correct? The pictures of the movement are blurry and not very good, but the first pic is the fork as high as it can go, and the second pic is the fork as low as it could go after I gently nudged it with my tweezers. Could it be an issue with the pivots on the pallet fork? Or is there supposed to be a little bit of up and down play on the fork when it's secured in place under the pallet fork bridge?

 

Also, @JohnR725, thanks for the explanation about focusing on the point between the two balance arms to set the impulse jewel properly.

 

Hey would you look at that ! The pivot is missing on the pallet fork wow

2 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hey would you look at that ! The pivot is missing on the pallet fork wow

Maybe something mac needed to discover for himself

[Macavity]

11 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hey would you look at that ! The pivot is missing on the pallet fork wow

Maybe something mac needed to discover for himself

It certainly looks that way 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 minute ago, Macavity said:

It certainly looks that way 

I was actually trying to lead you to finding it yourself through inspection, but people got all frustrated and arsy about it. 

[Macavity]

18 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I was actually trying to lead you to finding it yourself through inspection, but people got all frustrated and arsy about it. 

Makes sense, I was getting confused because it still seems to “work” as it should, minus the up/down wobble. 

[Nucejoe]

Just checked Macvity's intro, new to watch repair and the forum. Somehow slipped through the net as nobody said hi , welcommed him, I just did and ask our welcomming commitee to welcome our new friend. 

Perfectly understandable newbies to be  unfamiliar with terminlogy etc. 

I only thought large  fonts should attract more attention.

Rgds

 

[LittleWatchShop]

2 minutes ago, Macavity said:

Makes sense, I was getting confused because it still seems to “work” as it should, minus the up/down wobble.

It is a useful exercise to understand how each element of the going train works with each other element while noting the tolerances allowed.  Sure, the pallet fork would flick back and forth but in some movements (not sure about this one) there is a bit of a valley where the pallet lower pivot sits, so the body could still find a place to sit. HOWEVER, it will still flop up and down and completely miss the roller jewel. You are learning...this is a good lesson!!  Don't give up.

[Neverenoughwatches]

26 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Just checked Macvity's intro, new to watch repair and the forum. Somehow slipped through the net as nobody said hi , welcommed him, I just did and ask our welcomming commitee to welcome our new friend. 

Perfectly understandable newbies to be  unfamiliar with terminlogy etc. 

I only thought large  fonts should attract more attention.

Rgds

 

It did and it was funny, I definitely heard an echo as it ricocheted off Yorkshire's three peaks .  Oh btw Mac hello, nice to meet you

42 minutes ago, Macavity said:

Makes sense, I was getting confused because it still seems to “work” as it should, minus the up/down wobble. 

This is why i enjoy John's input, he is a great teacher. You don't often get a straight answer with him ( because that doesn't necessarily help you learn )but all the clues are there for you to decipher. John guides you in the direction you need to go to find the problem yourself this way you are more likely to remember what you’ve learned. Keep at it , you will make a shed load of mistakes but suck it up, learn and you will get good with practice and experience.  Now onward and get this working again

[Macavity]

Thanks, everyone.

[JohnR725]

20 hours ago, Macavity said:

I have a 6498 clone arriving later this week and I’ll probably order another 6497 for spare parts as well, then I’ll have something to actually compare it to.

One other thing is I think you should do would be when you get your replacement movement. When there is no power on the movement rotate the balance wheel 180° let it go and see how many times it oscillates then you'll know in the future what is the number for your watch. Also take some time and look at the watch when it's running. Initially were so excited to rip this thing apart that we don't always pay attention to things. Look at the balance wheel look at how to oscillates look at the hairspring out opens and closes look at it looks flatter.. Then compare it to you other watch you can make comparisons. It's really hard to tell with one watch especially when your new what is good and what is bad. Now they have some experience what you're looking for you can look at the new watch and things should be hopefully little more visible of what you're looking at.

 

[Macavity]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

One other thing is I think you should do would be when you get your replacement movement. When there is no power on the movement rotate the balance wheel 180° let it go and see how many times it oscillates then you'll know in the future what is the number for your watch. Also take some time and look at the watch when it's running. Initially were so excited to rip this thing apart that we don't always pay attention to things. Look at the balance wheel look at how to oscillates look at the hairspring out opens and closes look at it looks flatter.. Then compare it to you other watch you can make comparisons. It's really hard to tell with one watch especially when your new what is good and what is bad. Now they have some experience what you're looking for you can look at the new watch and things should be hopefully little more visible of what you're looking at.

 

Thanks, I’ll definitely play around with the new movement before taking it apart so I have an idea of what behaviors I’m looking for. Thanks again for all your help and explanations, glad the mystery is finally solved. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

When there is no power on the movement rotate the balance wheel 180° let it go and see how many times it oscillates then you'll know in the future what is the number for your watch.

Great tip John, that gives a bench mark for some intial factory performance. 

[RichardHarris123]

In general no, the spring can be repaired though.  There's videos available on working on hairsprings. 

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Tonym199 said:

Hi I have more of a question I have an issue where the balance  spring is stretched out of shape but the balance itself is ok  is there  any way to replace the spring

Another skill that needs to be learned is how to fix your hairspring. Of course the first step is identify what exactly is the problem know how you'd need to fix the hairspring. There are books that talk about this there's also some videos. Ideally you want to get a scrap balance wheel or two or three and practice bending your hairspring there it's a thing you need to practice every single day to be good.

In order for watch to keep time to balance wheel and hairspring have to be matched to a very very close tolerance. This means in the case of flash hairsprings every single hairspring was vibrated for the specific balance wheel with someone. So if you look at the parts list there is no hairspring balance complete only

The exception to this is an over coil hairspring. To get the over coil in the correct location it's easier to pre-make the Springs to exacting specifications. But this means the balance wheel now has to be matched hairspring. Severe looking at American pocket watches in their parts book you always see timing screws. This way you can match your balance wheel to your new hairspring.

Then here's a link to the video or one of the videos have the same person wrote like a lot of books and one of them at least one of them has an entire section on hairspring fixing. When you're watching the video I would get a practice balance wheel because he is really really experienced any makes everything looks so simple and if you don't practice well after outcome might not be quite what to expect

 

[JohnFrum]

The Sep 1995 issue of the Horological Times has two articles on hairspring manipulation by Archie Perkins and Henry Fried. The October 1995 issue has the second part of Fried’s article.

My copy of Fried’s bench practices does not have the chapter on bent hairsprings which I believe these two issues reproduce. 

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by JohnFrum

[RichardHarris123]

Can't really replace the spring, that's what people have been trying to tell you. 

[LittleWatchShop]

29 minutes ago, Tonym199 said:

Thanks for the info but the spring is destroyed do you know how to replace the spring ex connect a spring to the balance wheel 

What Richard said.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Tonym199 said:

Thanks for the info but the spring is destroyed do you know how to replace the spring ex connect a spring to the balance wheel 

The reason why we practice on practice watches is because their disposable.

Now you need a balance complete or steal a balance wheel out of another identical movement. You cannot replace the hairspring as a separate component.

[Nucejoe]

On 2/17/2023 at 1:53 AM, Tonym199 said:

Hi I have more of a question I have an issue where the balance  spring is stretched out of shape but the balance itself is ok  is there  any way to replace the spring 

Presumably you are thinking a simple transfer of a hairspring onto your balance, little chance of a match there, but not impossible. 

In cases the piece on bench is rare or expensive then  " Can't be done"  is no longer acceptable and there are alternatives approaches. 

1-Building a hairspring out of raw coil of the right CGS . there is also the question of springs grade for high grade oscilators.

2-Cutting an existing hairspring until  you get the desired beat out of the oscilator, once you did, it would need to be studded and often re-colletted. 

Since your practing now, you wouldn't be trigerring world war III ,  if you just cut until the right beat is axhieved. 

Prior to advent of ready made balance completes. repairers had to build balance completes out of balance, hairspring and other parts.

Rgds

 

 

 

[LittleWatchShop]

3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Presumably you are thinking a simple transfer of a hairspring onto your balance, little chance of a match there, but not impossible. 

In cases the piece on bench is rare or expensive then  " Can't be done"  is no longer acceptable and there are alternatives approaches. 

1-Building a hairspring out of raw coil of the right CGS . there is also the question of springs grade for high grade oscilators.

2-Cutting an existing hairspring until  you get the desired beat out of the oscilator, once you did, it would need to be studded and often re-colletted. 

Since your practing now, you wouldn't be trigerring world war III ,  if you just cut until the right beat is axhieved. 

Prior to advent of ready made balance completes. repairers had to build balance completes out of balance, hairspring and other parts.

Rgds

 

 

 

@Nucejoe I think you have posted about vibrating hairsprings.  What tool do you use?

[Nucejoe]

3 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

@Nucejoe I think you have posted about vibrating hairsprings.  What tool do you use?

Wish I had a luthy tool .   

Instal the hairspring on balance and in the movemet, check the rate on TG, if slow rate, reduce  the spring's active length( do not cut yet) ,   check the rate, inch towards the right beat for the movement ie; when it keeps accurate time. 

For low or even regulair grade  time pieces , I do not recollet.

Time consuming but how many of us have a luthy tool? 

Rgds

 

I also have bundles of balances, so when I come accross a hairspring, chances of not having to cut is good.

Having bundles of balances and hairspring incerases the chance of matching spring--balance.

[JohnR725]

On 2/18/2023 at 5:04 AM, Nucejoe said:

Wish I had a luthy tool

It would be much better if you could get a electronics solution rather than the conventional tool because using it is a pain.

Of course you could just make your own if you didn't care about the fancy base. All you need is just the balance wheel a balance bridge like the very first image in this discussion how hard would that be to make?

 

 

 

 

[LittleWatchShop]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Of course you could just make your own

Believe me...I have thought about this a number of times.  Seems like an easy thing to build, frankly.

Building an electronic one is intriguing...will noodle on that a bit.

One other thing that has been bouncing around in my head...can you vibrate a breguet hairspring?

Edited February 19, 2023 by LittleWatchShop

[Nucejoe]

11 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

can you vibrate a breguet hairspring?

I have shaped overcoils by just copying another overcoil for balances of same caliber. 

Vibrate the hairspring as a flat one first, leave some extra length  , then copy the "another"  overcoil . Technically debateable, but you find matching the balance with the spring you shaped  easy as you would with a factory made one, acceptable delta too. 

I heard factory made ones are shape by individuals who do this all day.  Overcoil shaper.  ha ha. 

[LittleWatchShop]

8 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

I have shaped overcoils

Do you use the soft wooden block method for bending or do you have overcoil tweezers?

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Believe me...I have thought about this a number of times.  Seems like an easy thing to build, frankly.

Building an electronic one is intriguing...will noodle on that a bit.

One other thing that has been bouncing around in my head...can you vibrate a breguet hairspring?

If yes Google hairspring vibrating tools then look at the images and you'll notice that there is several people that have made vibrating tools. Including at least cool electric ones in one of them either he actually tells you exactly how we did it.

Then just building any sort of electronic vibrating tool might be more interesting and then the mechanical version. If you get a clock timing machine for instance they will measure beats per hour. Otherwise you could build something for that or get a witschi machine because they will do beats for our.

Then the traditionally the over coil hairspring us as I pointed out on multiple occasions are pretty vibrated because the coils actually come in their books that show there were coils there are literally hundreds of shapes for wherever had one. But copying an existing one would be a better way to go rather than reinventing the wheel. So you should build a do this

 

32 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Vibrate the hairspring as a flat one first, leave some extra length 

Not necessarily even leave extra length but vibrate the hairspring form the over coil and if necessary for timing that's what the timing screws are for. That's why when you buy premade ones you're supposed to match the balance wheel so that hairspring.